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« Large Hadron Rap | Main | Elections, Voting and Morality, Part 1 »

September 17, 2008

Comments

TerryC

The really sad thing is that at this time, as he nears the end of his life and should be concerned with the Four Last Things, he seems more concerned with promoting indifferentism, and assailing the authority of the Church. Were I in his position the last thing I would want to be doing is racking up things that I will have to explain to my Lord in a very short time. I'm just saying...

Jeb Protestant

I've never heard of this chap, but I have heard of plenty of Catholics teaching indifferentism who never get disciplined. Why not fire Kasper instead?

SDG

Why not fire Kasper instead?

Kasper's views on some subjects are not without problems, but he is no indifferentist.

LJ

The line between the indifferentist and the actual teaching of V2 and the entire body of Church teaching on salvation, is the line between "can" and "will".
That God "can" save anyone, anytime is a statement of God's power and omnipotence, a statement made in humility, in the spirit of St. Paul who urges us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, and in hope without presumption.
Claiming that God "will" save or condemn anyone particular person or group of persons, is a presumption that the Church has never engaged in, despite her strong language and conviction based on her infallible authority to teach the content and meaning of Divine Revelation. The indifferentist crosses that line and while seeming to take a benevolent position, an enlightened position, it is really rooted in pride, insofar is the indifferentist claims to know more than the infallible teaching authority of the Church.

Indifferentism defies the Church and the Gospel on many levels and is reminiscent of a couple of connected prominent Protestant teachings; the "assurance" of salvation and OSAS.

Ed Peters

Who knows what's going on here, but a CNS line caught my attention: "Father Hryniewicz, who headed the university's Ecumenical Institute, has published more than 820 books and papers..."

What on earth does that mean, 820 books and periodicals? I am reminded of Stravinsky's quip about Vivaldi: "That man did not write 600 concerti; he wrote one concerti 600 times." Is he a Polish Andrew Greeley, you know, "a man without an unpublished thought"?

The Masked Chicken

I have not been able to connect to Opentheology.org, where the paper is housed, but Google has cached the page containing the abstract (I do not know who wrote it).

Hryniewicz's position seems based upon a personalist reading of scripture. In the abstract:

The author stresses the particular character of truth approached from a Biblical perspective. This unique character denotes its openness and its direct relationship with eschatology. A positive, inclusive understanding of the truth is applied to ecclesiology. In the light of this crucial
connection between the Biblical concept of truth and Christian hope, the author reviews the significance of the recent document issued by the Vatican.

Truth was definitely not always seen as inclusive (the golden calf stands large in the history of salvation). In fact, I would propose an analogy: the relationship of truth to salvation may be thought of as a funnel. A funnel has a small opening and a large opening. In Hryniewicz's view, from what I can gather from the abstract (and someone who can read the original article, correct me, if I am wrong, since I do not want to add confusion by mis-stating his case), the large opening of the funnel of truth is facing man and the small opening is facing heaven. I propose that he has it backwards: the small end of truth is facing man and the large end is facing heaven. The truths necessary for salvation form a whole and must necessarily be somewhat small, since they must be held by a child (as Jesus points out), but since the sum of truth enlarges once we leave this life, truth expands outward.

Perhaps, he is looking from the wrong end and seeing the inclusiveness of the large opening, assumes that it must extend to this earth. It is true that truth has an inclusive aspect to it, but only after one has accepted the truth. In the same way that freedom can be said to be enlarged by obedience, the truth can said to be enlarged by acceptance of the truth.

Of more concern to me is his statement:

The author concludes by re-affirming the value of Christian ecclesiological (denominational) diversity, which can be compared to different 'paths' which have been leading Christians towards God through the centuries. Therefore, the theological quarrel about 'the best way' to God is pointless as the author states that Christian theology should be aware that God's abundance in grace cannot be comprehended by theological models or channelled by just one form of Christianity. As noted by the author, God, like 'an excellent musician uses many instruments in order to bring salvation to his people' and this intuition of Clement of Alexandria is still a valuable signpost to all Christians.

This quotation is taken from Clement of Axelandria, the Proptrepticus (the Exhortation to the Heathens [Greeks]). Look for footnote 869.

Therefore (for the seducer is one and the same) he that at the beginning brought Eve down to death, now brings thither the rest of mankind. Our ally and helper, too, is one and the same—the Lord, who from the beginning gave revelations by prophecy, but now plainly calls to salvation. In obedience to the apostolic injunction, therefore, let us flee from “the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience,”869869 Eph. ii. 2. and let us run to the Lord the saviour, who now exhorts to salvation, as He has ever done, as He did by signs and wonders in Egypt and the desert, both by the bush and the cloud, which, through the favour of divine love, attended the Hebrews like a handmaid. By the fear which these inspired He addressed the hard-hearted; while by Moses, learned in all wisdom, and Isaiah, lover of truth, and the whole prophetic choir, in a way appealing more to reason, He turns to the Word those who have ears to hear. Sometimes He upbraids, and sometimes He threatens. Some men He mourns over, others He addresses with the voice of song, just as a good physician treats some of his patients with cataplasms, some with rubbing, some with fomentations; in one case cuts open with the lancet, in another cauterizes, in another amputates, in order if possible to cure the patient’s diseased part or member. The Saviour has many tones of voice, and many methods for the salvation of men; by threatening He admonishes, by upbraiding He converts, by bewailing He pities, by the voice of song He cheers. He spake by the burning bush, for the men of that day needed signs and wonders.

Obviously, this passage has nothing to do with ecumenism. It simply says that God can use the many exigencies of life as well as a personal approach designed for each person to lead them to heaven. Jesus, as much, said so, when he said that he was going away to prepare a dwelling place for us and that there are many mansions in his Father's house. This passage certainly does not mean that there are many different external routes to salvation, even within the Christian sphere.

Fr. Hryniewicz is simply looking for selected evidence.

I have the entire article roughly translated into English via a website that translates from Polish. I cannot get on to Opentheology.org to find out whether or not the article is copyrighted and until I find that out, I cannot post the translation, here.

The part about Clement is:

Diversity of human way is benediction towards god. Such exist rescue expensive (dear) < way >, which (who) knows god only. They don't argue , which (who) is fairest from they if (or) only valid. They don't argue about exhaustiveness of truth and center of (means of) rescue. God has them more, than it seems . There is god all, god genuinely ecumenical. How it has spoken out wise words on turning-point (ravine) II and klemens III century (age) Aleksandryjski there is \u201e savior [Greek quote omitted]. It unusual metaphor, drawn hides great profundity from domain of music in savior is polifoniczny [polyphony] and for all rescue of people \u201e \u201d politropiczny. 2 [ ] Klemens Aleksandryjski. Protreptikos And, 8,3. 2 SCh, 62 s..

The Chicken

Danman916

Jimmy Akin stated:

"The article was sharply critical of the CDF's 2007 document summarizing certain aspects of the nature of the Church, which stated among other things that the Catholic Church is unique among churches and ecclesial communities as a means by which God provides grace to the world."

Can somone help me with this. I don't see how this position is problematic.
It is stating that the Catholic Church alone, as the Church of Christ is the means by which God provides grace to the world.

This seems orthodox to me. What's the problem?

Rotten Orange
Can somone help me with this. I don't see how this position is problematic. It is stating that the Catholic Church alone, as the Church of Christ is the means by which God provides grace to the world.

Dear D916

probably someone is will post another comment sooner than me, but I think you didn't pay enough attention. Follow:

Oblate Fr. Waclaw Hryniewicz...faces disciplinary charges at the CDF...Fr. Hryniewicz published an article in the online theology journal Open Theology...The article was sharply critical of the CDF's 2007 document summarizing certain aspects of the nature of the Church, which stated among other things that the Catholic Church is unique among churches and ecclesial communities as a means by which God provides grace to the world...
What's problematic isn't the CDf article that you mentioned, but Fr. Hryniewicz's opposition to it.

"Hope this helps."

Gerald

I have the entire article roughly translated into English via a website that translates from Polish. I cannot get on to Opentheology.org to find out whether or not the article is copyrighted and until I find that out, I cannot post the translation, here.

Meanwhile, here">http://www.opentheology.org/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26id%3D42%26Itemid%3D42&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=5&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DHryniewicz%2Bthe%2Bsavior%2Buses%2Bmany%2Btunes%26hl%3Den">here is a link to a translation.

The Masked Chicken

Dear Danman916,

As Rotten Orange said, the sentence you quoted should be read with this emphasis:

"The article [Fr. Hryniewicz's] was sharply critical of the CDF's 2007 document summarizing certain aspects of the nature of the Church, which [the CDF 2007 document] stated among other things that the Catholic Church is unique among churches and ecclesial communities as a means by which God provides grace to the world."

Fr. Hryniewicz was critical of the document and it was the document that stated the the doctrine of the uniqueness of the Catholic Church as a means of grace, so Fr. Hryniewicz was critical of the doctrine contained in the document.

The 2007 CDF document is orthodox. Fr. Hryniewicz's opinion of the doctrine contained in the document is not and he takes exception to both the document and the doctrine in his article.

The Chicken

The Masked Chicken

Dear Gerald

Thanks for the translation. Since Google did it, I guess its okay under the likely terms of service for the ISP, although translations of copyrighted material has to be approved by the copyright holder, ordinarily.

Anyway, I especially like the sentence:

Wszyscy jesteśmy tylko ludźmi drogi. All roads are only human beings.

Got to love those translators.

The Chicken

Gerald

Anyway, I especially like the sentence: Wszyscy jesteśmy tylko ludźmi drogi. All roads are only human beings.

Many tunes, many translations. According to Prof. Hryniewicz, the Savior uses many. I hope the professor does not object.

Jeb Protestant

Dr. Peters,

Wouldn't that be "one concertO"?

The Masked Chicken

Dear Jeb Protestant,

You wrote:

Dr. Peters,

Wouldn't that be "one concertO"?

Written by VivaldI, no doubt :)

The Chicken

Danman916

Oh, I see.

Thanks for clarifying this for me, everyone.

the warrior

Being a violinist myself, to say that Vivaldi wrote the same concerto 600 times is a rumor. Usually comes from people who didn't play Vivaldi. I'm a fiddler, so I should know. Stravinsky said it because he wrote stuff that, in my opinion, is utterly worthless.

Ed Peters

Yes, Jeb, but i can't vcorrect typos once they go up. warrior, i'm no violisnt, though i played some cello V, and it all sounded the same to me. anyway, my point is, who has 600 books and articles in him? at least, ones that are really worth something?

The Masked Chicken

Dear Ed,

You wrote:

who has 600 books and articles in him? at least, ones that are really worth something?

Just one word: Mozart

Actually, a better answer is (drum roll):

An encyclopedia salesman :)

The Chicken

Polish translator

Sure this situation that happened is not very good. But this is our life. And we should live it according to laws of morality.

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