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September 05, 2008

Comments

Tim J.

That's some very blunt language from the CDF. Hard to misinterpret.

Would that be unusually blunt, even?

Jenny Z

Our Lady would never bring people to disobedience. Ever. That's all I need know.

Good for the Bishop.

Kevin

Jimmy- are the "apparitions" still under his authority or are they under the Holy See or the Conference of Bishops? I have heard different things.

Dave Mueller

Does any of this affect the status of the apparitions themselves?

Tominellay

This reminds me that in an interview Bp. Peric published in early 2006, he recounted events of his 'ad limina' visit to Rome, including the news that the CDF had become interested in the schism in the Mostar diocese. This was followed in Summer, '06, with rumors that the Vatican was about to launch a new commission of investigation. This, then, was followed by the absence of visible action on the part of the Bishops Conference of B-H. And now the letter from CDF states plainly that "Within the context of the phenomenon Medjugorje, this Dicastery is studying the case of Fr. Tomislav Vlasic..."

This, then, is the beginning of Rome's solution.

David Obeid

Clear language indeed! This is refreshing for two reasons:

1. It came from a Bishop. Clarity from Bishops isn't common place where I come from.

2. It starts to set the record straight for those who have been duped into believing that the Church is somehow on the opposite side of the local Bishop(s) there.

Maureen

When I read about Lourdes, one of the interesting things was that a lot of evil supernatural stuff happened in the area, even while St. Bernadette was still having visions. But then the bad stuff stopped, perhaps because St. Bernadette continued to be humble, pious, and obedient despite great anxiety and fear as well as physical sufferings and humiliation.

Visionary saints frequently suffer serious temptations and deceptions from the Devil, trying to trick them into having pride, or in believing false visions instead of true ones. It seems to be believed by many spiritual writers that some visionaries do indeed fall for this stuff, and are usually driven by it into being either crazy or out for what they can get. If they do fight it successfully, the people around them receive greater blessings. If not... well, that's not good for anyone.

Medjugorje villagers were apparently involved in typical Balkan massacre stuff. This isn't a good fruit. There's all this disobedience and schism. That's not a good fruit. A lot of other dubious stuff has gone on, none of which is good fruit. So even if the Medjugorje apparitions started out as something holy and were able to help many pilgrims, it's pretty clear that they've gotten contaminated pretty badly.

ASimpleSinner

Jimmy's back!

labrialumn

One of the news articles I read stated that Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger forbade Catholics to go on pilgrimage to that site way back in 1985, with the indication that this ban was still in effect.

Can anyone confirm or deny this? I have a lot of Catholic friends who put great stock in the site and experiences they had their in leading their lives.

John Smith

a Vlasic pickle.

Fr. Terry Donahue, CC

Labrialumn,

"...official pilgrimages to Medjugorje, understood as a place of authentic Marian apparitions, are not permitted to be organized either on the parish or on the diocesan level..." (Most Rev. Tarcisio Bertone, Secretary, CDF, March 1996).

Private pilgrimages are permitted, "on the condition that they not be considered a validation of events in progress and which still call for examination by the Church" (Most Rev. Tarcisio Bertone, Secretary, CDF, May 1998).

A useful link to all the relevant documentation:
http://members.tripod.com/~chonak/documents/medj_index.html

Kevin

Hello,

I was given this info regarding going privately etc (I am not really a supporter of Med. by the way...I wait for the Church on this)

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
(Pr. No 154/81-06419)
May 26, 1998
To His Excellency Mons. Gilbert Aubry,
Bishop of Saint-Denis de la Reunion
Excellency:

In your letter of January 1, 1998, you submitted to this Dicastery several questions about the position of the Holy See and of the Bishop of Mostar in regard to the so called apparitions of Medjugorje, private pilgrimages and the pastoral care of the faithful who go there. In regard to this matter, I think it is impossible to reply to each of the questions posed by Your Excellency. The main thing I would like to point out is that the Holy See does not ordinarily take a position of its own regarding supposed supernatural phenomena as a court of first instance. As for the credibility of the "apparitions" in question, this Dicastery respects what was decided by the Bishops of the former Yugoslavia in the Declaration of Zadar, April 10, 1991: "On the basis of the investigation so far, it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations." Since the division of Yugoslavia into different independent nations it would now pertain to the members of the Episcopal Conference of Bosnia-Hercegovina to eventually reopen the examination of this case, and to make any new pronouncements that might be called for. What Bishop Peric said in his letter to the Secretary General of "Famille Chretienne", declaring: "My conviction and my position is not only 'non constat de supernaturalitate,' but likewise, ''constat de non supernaturalitate' of the apparitions or revelations in Medjugorje", should be considered the expression of the personal conviction of the Bishop of Mostar which he has the right to express as Ordinary of the place, but which is and remains his personal opinion.
Finally, as regards to pilgrimages to Medjugorje, which are conducted privately, this Congregation points out that they are permitted on condition that they are not regarded as an authentication of events still taking place and which still call for an examination by the Church. I hope that I have replied satisfactorily at least to the principal questions that you have presented to this Dicastery and I beg Your Excellency to accept the expression of my devoted sentiments.
Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone
(Secretary to the "Congregation" presided over by Cardinal Ratzinger)

Er

That's a sad thing to know about Fr. Tomislav Vlasic. As a religous, he should be directly reporting to his local superiors and adhere to his vow of obedience. Without humility and disobedience to his immediate superiors would force us to discredit any claim by the said apparition in Medjugorje.

We have the Church, let's all pray for Fr. Vlasic and wait for its final promulgation about it.

God bless us.

Don

When did he discontinue as Spiritual Director to the Visionaries?

Margaret

Anybody have any practical thoughts on how to deal with the Medjugorje-fixated? I have an acquaintance who, amongst other things, carries around slips of paper in her purse with "Our Lady's" "latest message" to give to people she meets. I usually just take it politely and do NOT engage with any conversation about it. I get the sense that at least some of these folks are just not open to rational discussion of the matter because they are so emotionally invested.

Any thoughts? Is this something I should try to raise with her or just keep my mouth shut?

bill912

You might try asking her why she believes in an alleged apparition that has not been approved by the Church, as the Church teaches us that ONLY the Church is competent to judge the validity of an apparition. Ask her why she is judging what she is not competent to judge.

Fall Medjudgorje, Fall!

Eric G

When will Pope Benedict start discipline heterodox, pedophile-enabling bishops?

Maybe he can start by quitting referring to his pedophile-enabling predecessors as great and holy men?

I'm not trying to troll. I'm only making the point that while Pope Benedict has done a fine job disciplining priests, he's kept the episcopacy untouched. We're preparing ourselves for a rehash of 2002 20 years from now, guys.

The Masked Chicken

Sadly, the state of knowledge among the laity (and some clergy?) with regards to the discernment of mystical revelations is bleak. There are so many people running after the latest apparitions who have no idea that private revelations are not binding on anyone except the one to whom it is given. Certainly, private revelation is not needed for salvation, although they can be an aid to devotion.

Where to begin...Margaret, if the person you know is a slight acquaintance, then you might have an easier time talking to them than if they are a close acquaintance or family. Family will tend to ignore your opinion.

There are various reasons why someone might be fixated on a private revelation: the desire to be with the "in crowd," which is a type of veiled triumphantism, fear, because of what the revelation said, fear because of a hidden personal fear or fault that the revelation speaks to, curiosity, genuine awe (although, this is rare in cases of false revelation), a desire for a touch of the holy, simple misunderstanding about how to decide if a mystical phenomenon is true, personal contact with the mystics or the experience of a mystical phenomenon while in the presence of the seer, etc.

In general, the more experiential the fixation (for example, having had personally experienced a mystical phenomenon in the presence of the seer), the harder it will be to convince them that the phenomenon is a deception. In some very committed cases, where there has been an on-going reception of second-hand mystical experiences stemming from the original, I would advise these be referred to an expert.

The best way to help your acquaintance is to help them find a good spiritual director. These are not easy to find. There are many good practical directors, but the ones qualified to deal with supernatural phenomenon (such as Fr. Thomas Dubay, who has been on Catholic Answers Live, many times) are small. Unfortunately, although pastoral psychology is taught at many U. S. seminaries, courses in mystical theology are no longer mandated (they used to be part of the core curriculum in the 1900-1940 period). Thus, many good priests simply do not have the background to direct someone who is experiencing mystical phenomena or realize themselves how dangerous they can be. There was also a trend (fortunately, now starting to be reverse, but slowly) for a while for diocesan priests to try to avoid becoming a spiritual director. It is a great responsibility and can be very taxing.

Unless you have a great deal of experience, I would not advise you to try to be a director to this person in these matters (not that you would), although there are programs for the laity to become spiritual directors.

The first thing for you to do, personally, is pray for your acquaintance that God will grant them what is best. Such a prayer, made in love for your acquaintance will not be ignored. The second thing for you to do is to become knowledgeable, yourself, if you are not already, both about mystical revelation in general and Medugorje in particular. The absolute best reference book on mystical revelation is now very outdated and out of print. It is,

The graces of interior prayer: A treatise on mystical theology, by Fr. Augustin. Poulain.

It was originally in French, but has been translated by Leonora L. Yorke Smith. This book used to be the standard in courses in mystical theology in seminaries before Vatican II. It formed the basis for Fr. Benedict Groeschel's little book,

A Still Small Voice,

which is still in print (Ignatius) and discusses Medugorje. Another accessible book is

Apparitions: Mystic Phenomena and What They Mean, by Kevin Orlin Johnson, Ph.D.

These are the three I would start with, as they are straightforward, comprehensive, easy to read, and (except for Poulin) easy to find. There are also some books I cannot recommend, such as The Miracle Detective.

Third, do some research into Marian apparitions. Find out the criteria that the Church has used to determine whether or not an apparition is worthy of being approved. Fr. Groeschel's book goes into this, to some extent, if I recall.

Gently let your friend know that you do not believe in the apparitions at Medugorje. State it in a friendly way, as a sort of opinion, at first. It would probably do little good to hit her over the head with facts. If she can still consider you a friend and yet know that you have problems with the apparitions, then you have done a good. It will allow future information against the apparitions to reach her in a non-confrontational way, since she will be able to see that you don't believe, but are still her friend.

If you need more practical advice, feel free to post in the combox.

The Chicken


kentuckyliz

There are Medjugorje followers who think the church will become the Church of Medjugorje...they talk about the Medjugorje Age. It's whack. Hopefully some increasing discipline will help them back away from the edge and get back to normal.

Steve

I don't disagree that "...Medjugorje Age..." stuff is whack. I don't embrace the Medjugorje message, (whatever it is, I don't even know). What I do know is this, my friends wife went there on a private pilgrimage with a serious medical affliction and it was healed. She had a tumor documented on medical imaging with neurodeficit. Her prognosis was not good. When she returned, there was no more tumor and all neuro afflictions were gone.

I'm not saying she was cured by Medjugorje. Obviously she made a sincere and pious pilgrimage and God showed her mercy. I just wanted to leaven the conversation with a little good news attatched to Medjugorje. Also, I trust the judgement of Holy Mother Church and I am glad that the renegade priest is being disciplined.

Pyro

Rotten Orange
I don't embrace the Medjugorje message, (whatever it is, I don't even know). What I do know is this, my friends wife went there on a private pilgrimage with a serious medical affliction and it was healed.

Dear Steve

I remember having heard once that sometimes a place whose Marian apparitions don't seem to be true and isn't looked upon favorably by the Church can become a place of real miracles if genuine faith and devotion are shown by the pilgrims. I have no idea whether or not that's true, but based on your story, it may be the case.
Of course, if there are hardcore stuff like contra sextum sins happening in Medjugorge, the place deserves much scrutiny.

Peter K

Wow, is the entire Medjugorje parish guilty by association with Fr. Tomislav Vlasic? Is the entire Franciscan order for that matter? Currently it is Fr. Tomislav Vlasic being censured and him alone.

Some true healing - spiritual and physical - has occurred via the Medjugorge phenom. Much of this has been painstakingly investigated and documented by religious and secular experts.

IMO, the best book and balanced take on the subject is 'The Miracle Detective' by Randall Sullivan. It is an engaging quick but thorough read and not a drippy devotional. At the time of writing (pre2004ish) Sullivan was a contributing editor to both Rolling Stone and Men's Journal. He has also authored two books dealing with LA police corruption and the murders of some rap singers. One will be amazed at the degree of scientific scrutiny the 'seers' have undergone. This is delineated extensively in the book. Fr. Tomislav Vlasic is mentioned in the book. The history of the area is fleshed out with great detail, and much of it is not pretty. The book covers more than Medjugorje. Amazon will have more info.

I think much of what disgusts some regarding Medjugorje is the fanaticism it seems to stimulate. But that disgust should be with the fanatic and not necessarily with the subject of his/her fanaticism.

Tomh

I have never given two seconds of thought or consideration to these "apparitions". This is where I agree with many non-Catholics. The fixation on these events is unhealthy. Boil down Our Lady's messages: Repent, pray for sinners, pray for the Pope and Church. Get closer to Christ. Got it....got it from the Bible and 2000 years of Church history. All Public Revelation has ceased. There's nothing I'm interested to hear from these wacko situations.

Mildred R.

In places , events, people whereby God, the Virgin Mary, saints or angels have visited or revea]ed themselves or have given messages, there have been controversies. Since majority of people have not experienced such things and these experiences and events also have to be scrutinized closely and required a great and serious discernment, the process at arriving to a definite conclusion is slow and laborious and sometimes controversial. The church authority has also changed its negative edicts on many occasions. What is very important is how the people involved can stay humble and obedient to the higher authority in face of prohibitions. If the revelations or events were authentic, it would bear fruits eventually.

I was in Medjugorje in 1988. I have heard many positive experiences. In Medjugorje, my cousin went to confession after not having gone for many years. A priest, who was staying in the same house with us and hated to hear confessions, had a change of heart and admitted to having been inspired by the Virgin Mary to hearing confessions.

Rotten Orange
I have never given two seconds of thought or consideration to these "apparitions".

I don't think it's fair to give Guadalupe, Lourdes, Fatima and Aparecida, which already have an established good reputation and approval of the Church, the same treatment given to Medjugorje, whose credibility is still obscure.

The fixation on these events is unhealthy.

Likewise, I think that your dismissal of all the "apparitions", while may very well be within the boundaries of Catholic orthodoxy, verges on ivory-tower übercatholicism.

All Public Revelation has ceased

Of course it has. The "apparitions" are considered as Private Revelations, as far as I know. As I said, while it is true that the faithful are not bound by the Church to believe in them, I don't think one can easily ignore, for example, the probable prediction of Pope John Paul II attempted assassination by Our Lady of Fatima, or the good effect of several American Protestants having converted to the Faith after reading about the "apparition" on the headlines of the New York Times.

Ellen

I think I fall somewhere in between when it comes to apparitions. I don't dismiss them, nor do I chase after them. Our Lady's message seems to be the same no matter what - repent, pray, stop offending God.

believer

We live in special times, we need special care. Mother Mary wants to give us special help. Let them listen who has ears, let them see who has eyes...I have been many, many times in Međugorje because I live in Croatia. You, who watch that apparitions from a distance (big distance -both fisically and especcialy spiritualy)and not have open hearts will never understand beautiful things that has happened there all these years. We need to pray for our bishops, we need a lot of prayer from all of you who think that they are believers - but without any discernmet...God bless all of you to see things from the right side...

bill912

The *right* side is the Church's side. And it is ONLY the Church that is competent to judge the validity of an alleged apparition. Not you. Not I. Only the Church.

paula

Yes, I agree with you. The right side is the Church's side (Thank God - not only one bishop's will or your, or my opinion) However, time will show to all of us what is a real true. Peace be with you brother/sister.

gloria

In defense of the messages coming from Medjugorje which are: Pray, fast, penance,read the bible, peace. There have never been any messages given that contradicted the Bible, the Catholic Church or the Magisterium united with the Pope. Medjugorje, her priests and our priests will continue to be attacked viciously by satan because of the millions of conversions that have occurred. Forget about the physical healings, the devil can do that, just think about the change of hearts that have happened since it began. I await the judgment of the Church and in the meantime I have incorporated into my life with love the 5 messages that have been repeated over and over again. The last thing satan wants is for people to change their lives and follow the commandments of God and to actually strive for holiness. We are all called to be saints!

Nancy

If you have been there you would know the love the reigns there. Mary is appearing with a simple message to know her son and his love. Conversion is constant in this holy little town. Pray, fast , read scripture, go to confession and celebrate the Mass how is this message not a beautiful one. If you know the story of Fr. Jozo you will see the persecution he suffered as well. If only the rest of the world was like this little holy town where the church is overflowing MANY times a day. Praise God for sending his Mother. Take a trip and see for yourself. What are you afraid of more prayer, contrition, daily mass, the truth revealed in scrpiture. If only regular churh goers received the Eucharist with such joy and reverance. I can not wait to return in a few short weeks. Praying for Fr. Vlasic and all the servants of God who have been called to minister to all who travel to Medjugorje.

bill912

"Mary is appearing..."

Nancy, see my comment 3 above yours.

mark waterinckx

Of course the Vatican’s commission has investigated the activities of Vlasic in Med. He was the first spiritual leader. The CDF accuses him of MANIPULATION OF THE CONSCIENCES. He was spiritual leader of the ‘seers’. Isn’t that clear enough?
The Vatican has confirmed the jurisdiction of Bishop Peric of Mostar by asking him to publish the Roman decree against Vlasic
Vlasic has his headquarter in Med.
He writes frequently in the “Echo of Med.”
He made a nun pregnant already in 1976. The child Toni was born in Germany on Jan. 15 1977. His mother was Sr Rufina, now again Manda Kozul. I possess the original copies of the many loveletters between Vlasic and this nun in that time . He manipulated her in a diabolical way.
In a letter to the pope he called his bishop ‘satan’!
‘Seer’ Marija Pavlovic made a public statement against manipulator Vlasic
Because of disobedience to bishop Zanic he was removed from Med.(where he arrived after Zovko was put in jail by the communists) to Vitina, which parish he left for living together with Agnes Heupel, who now says ‘Our Lady of Med. is not true’
After he was accused of holding satanic séances by a sister of his own community ‘Queen of Peace’ in Chieti-Italy he was degradated from superior to a mere member by a canonical process of a church commission in Italy.
It is Vlasic who invited the charismatic leaders of the whole world to Med. and who started the now thousands of prayergroups…
In the very beginning he wrote an Italian booklet together with Fr Slavko Barbaric PRO Med.
He has told me on taperecorder in Italian how he received ‘messages’ in May 1981 from Fr Tardif and Sr Briege Mc Kenna in Rome during an international charismatic meeting one month before the start of the fraud in Med. in June 1981.
Before 1981 he held in his parish in Capljina strange ‘charismatic’ trainingssessions with youngsters(also the ‘seers???’)
He perjured 2x before his bishop
Because Marija Pavlovic saw him sleeping together with Agnes Heupel in Italy, she left disappointed his community and married Paulo Lunetti.
Vlasic was particularly close to the 2 ofm-rebels, Ivica Vego and Ivan Prusina, who were disciplined by the church on Jan. 29 1982, and defended by the ‘Gospa’!!!

As you see, I have a big file about Vlasic and his involvement is such that he was like the ‘Rasputin of Med.’ I have many documents to prove what I’m saying.

Always available for more info

Pax et Bonum

mark waterinckx

bill912

"I possess the original copies of the many love letters between Vlasic and this nun in that time." Perhaps you could explain how you came to possess them, and offer some evidence to support such a claim.

"I have many documents to prove what I'm saying." And yet you've shown nothing to back up your claims.

paula

mark Waternick -who are you at all???? I don't know you, but I personally know f. Vlasic and you can't sell me your "claims". God bless you!
If you have had any love for a brother in need, you will never say anything like this on this or any other portal (no matter if that's lie or true what you have sad)

MichaelPaul

From Paula: "In defense of the messages coming from Medjugorje which are: Pray, fast, penance,read the bible, peace."

"in the meantime I have incorporated into my life with love the 5 messages that have been repeated over and over again."

I really don't think we need 27 years now of the same message repeated OVER AND OVER again, and still more of the same to come for us to get it into are minds and hearts and do.

Paula: "The last thing satan wants is for people to change their lives and follow the commandments of God and to actually strive for holiness."

True. Now someone needs to tell the so called "seers" and the so called SAINT Fr. Jozo Zovko with his Franciscans with him that promote Medjugoria. But you also have to understand it's in satans best interest to have people come and believe, and then convert to or come back to the church knowing they will later rebel againt the church when medjugoria is condemned as false. Here he gets more bang for his buck by dividing the church.

Paula: "There have never been any messages given that contradicted the Bible, the Catholic Church or the Magisterium united with the Pope." LOL-Read

bill912

Michael Paul: the poster's name is below the post, not above. What you attributed to Paula was posted by Gloria.

So SORRY to Paula.

First time here and I didn't notice that the posters name in under the post. It looks like the name of the poster in the post is at the top right corner. The quotes were taken from Gloria's post. Does anyone know how to get the URL: here to show up in post? Or is that not for adding a URL: to posts. Iput one in and it doesn't show.

What I wanted to add for Gloria and others to read was from this URL:

http://home.earthlink.net/~agless/Medjugorje.htm


Rotten Orange
Does anyone know how to get the URL: here to show up in post? Or is that not for adding a URL: to posts. Iput one in and it doesn't show.

Dear MichaelPaul

If by that you mean making a hyperlink, you can use regular HTML code here (with "<" and ">" instead of the brackets):

[a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~agless/Medjugorje.htm"]Insert here the word that you want to be shown[/a]

If that's not what you meant, then sorry...

MichaelPaul

The hyperlink is what I was looking for.

click Fr. Jozo and his MANY SEX-Affairs here.


Here's so great reading on Medjugorje.

The truth? Lots of reading on Medjugore or fiction. Enjoy

MichaelPaul

The link from my first post;

MichaelPaul

Lies by seers

rebellion against Rome by certain Franciscans

MichaelPaul

The rest for now on Medjugorje.

Medjugorje up until 2-28-2006

Edouard Cardinal Gagnon affirmed that:

The Holy Father has "never, ever made a positive statement about Medjugorje."

The Truth About Medjugorje
by
Msgr. Pavao Zanic, Bishop of Mostar


Sorry James about so many links in this post. There only links , so no ones is forced to read them. They can just pass over to the next post.

The Masked Chicken

This combox is not linked to the CDF. They are not waitiing to read our opinions so that they can make a decision. They have far more information than anyone, here. Let them do their job. Pray for them.

The Chicken

MichaelPaul

These links were not posted for the CDF. It's for the people that read posts here. Many don't have all this and the more information that's out there. It's to inform people here as to the truth about Medjugorje, and to what's really going on now, and from the start on the so called visions.

Plus, I found this site from a search in google. So when others type something in on Medjugorje, they will see these posts and maybe read them.

The Masked Chicken

Dear MichaelPaul,

Perhaps, I didn't state my point clearly. People are stating opinions and offering evidence in these comboxes for the purposes of doing what? Swaying opinions? Informing?

Ultimately, the CDF and others who have access to much more information than anyone here does will complete their investigations and then reach a conclusion. They have the responsibility to do so. What good does it do to argue the matter, here? Even if one posts seventy articles, if, in the end, they wind up at variance with the CDF verdict, they are useless or worse, possibly detractive. If they agree with the verdict, those articles still may not speak to anything that actually had any influence on the verdict itself, in any case, since there may be facts, not known to the public (the CDF is notorious for conducting their work in private, for the sake of all concerned), which influenced the final decision, whereas the facts presented in articles might have been irrelevant. People reading the articles might then have given the facts in them a weight they do not have with the CDF.

My point is that where there is an on-going investigation, if on assumes that the people conducting it are competent, the best thing to do is wait for the verdict and pray.

People who are looking for information about Medjugorje should simply be told the status of the investigation and the publicly available information from the Magisterium,

It is possible to become overly curious. I realize that we live in an information-rich era, but sometimes patience is the best course of action to take, especially in private revelations.

The Chicken

paula

Dear Michael Paul,

I'm wondering why are you so active about giving people your "truth about Medjugorje"?
Obviously, you don't know that recently Vatican formed special comission to investigate real truth! Don't you see that you jump in the conclusion??? I suppose purposely???
I'm right back from my pilgrimage from that holy place Medjugorje!
Have you ever been there??? I think you not! Never with open heart!
Anyway, thanking to your posts I know now who is Mark Waternick and I know now where wind come from (an old croatian saying)...Thank you, dear brother in Christ!

bill912

Since the Church has not yet made a judgment declaring Medjugorje "worthy of belief", isn't calling Medjugorje a "holy place" jumping to a conclusion?

paula

I have right to call that place holy if I feel like that - because it is holy for me personaly, understand ???

bill912

No. Only the Church can judge whether or not an alleged apparition is from God. We are not competent to make such a judgment.

MichaelPaul

Paula;
1.) I'm not putting out "My Truth" about Medjugorje. It's the truth about what's really going on in Medjugorje that the fanatics are surpressing to promote the Charismatic movement through it. Read what the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno wrote on their website as Jimmy posted above.

Diocese of Mostar-Duvno


2.)The Vatican did not form a new special comission to investigate Medjugorje. + Ratko Perić, Bishop of the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno asked the Vatican on 27 June 2008 where the rumor on Alleged Commission came from and if it was true (which is not), since he did not ask for CDF to take it over or look into Medjugorje.

The CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH only looked into, and then made a ruling on Fr. Tomislav Vlašić alone. Not on Medjugorje.


I was there in May of 1990. Only heard about about 1 1/2 months before. So I went there with no prejustices about it. Only went because my mother just read about it abd wanted to see what it was about. I only later started to learn Theology in mid 1991. Fr. Hardon started Theology classes here in 1992 that I started taking that went to the summer of 1998.

About your calling Medjugorje already a "Holy" place. You have proved the attitude and spirit, "I have right to call that place holy if I feel like that - because it is holy for me personaly, understand ???" of disobedience found in Chrasmatics and Marian chasers of UN-APPROVED APPARITION.

You might want to read this.
Testing The Spirit - The Criteria of Discernment

paula

Dear brothers, thank you for your concern!
But, when I call Međugorje "holy place" on this site I DO speak only in MY lowly NAME, not in the name of our beloved mother Church. I DO KNOW it is not official yet, but deep - deep in my heart I expect that it will be "holy" officially in the future.
However, I'm not worried about what will be with Međugorje. No, not at all!!! That is up to God's will, like it was until now.
One thing I'm really worried about is that there is not enough open hearts to recognize what is going on at all in the entire world spiritually, and what are the consequences and what are God's plans today (in accordance with that situation) to save souls.
God bless you all!

paula

For your better information:

Lectures About Medjugorje Held at Pontifical Conference

It was recently reported on the official shrine website (medjugorje.hr) that two lectures about Medjugorje were held at the Pontifical Marian International Academy which took place earlier this month in Lourdes.

Medjugorje This is the article from the shrine website:

“Apparitions of the BVM – Between history, faith and theology”, was the theme of the 22nd mariologic congress, which was held in Lourdes from September 4 to 8, 2008.

The most famous experts in theology, history of art, literature and ethnology from all over the world gathered together, and among them also the members of the Croatian section of the Croatian Mariologic Institute of the Faculty of Catholic Theology in Zagreb.

During the morning, the Congress worked in plenary sessions, and in the afternoon in 15 language sections, among which also the Croatian section. Two lectures treated the theme of Medjugorje: The Medjugorje apparitions and the universal Church, position of the Church dignitaries (Edo Peričić), and The Medjugorje apparitions and theology (Adalbert Rebić).

Croatian theologians, whether in favour of Medjugorje or fervently critical towards it, speak positively about what is presently happening in Medjugorje. “The fruits of the Medjugorje phenomenon are not disputable. Medjugorje is already now at the level of Fatima and Lourdes”, says Dr. Adalbert Rebić. „The apparitions and the visionaries have to wait… the main problem is in the fact that the local bishop is reserved towards this phenomenon, and we should neither neglect the fact that the visionaries are still quite young”, explains Rebić and adds that everything that is presently happening in Medjugorje is in conformity with the Church teachings, not only recognised but even recommended by the Church, and that the Bishops Conference already recognised these fruits.

Dr. Ivan Karić, a theologian who also participated in the congress, underlines that Medjugorje has de facto already become a shrine. But the Vatican, because of a certain lack of clarity, has not yet recognised the authenticity of apparitions. He adds that the destiny of Medjugorje depends very much on the position of the local bishop. Another theologian, Dr. Mato Zovkić, considers that Medjugorje can go on even with the restraint connected with the apparitions and the visionaries. He considers that the phenomenon of Medjugorje is unusual, because of the important number of the apparitions which last an exceptionally long time. It is impossible to give an official position as long as the apparitions are still happening.

waterinckx mark

I only find now the question asked by Paula on Sept. 21
"Who is mark waterinckx?"
Answer see :

www.semperficatholic.com/page46.html

The loveletters between Fr. Vlasic and the nun can be found in E. Michael Jones' book "The Medjugorje Deception" on p.47-49

paula

Mr. Waternickx,

I repeat I do know Fr. Vlasić very well and I do believe him. I'm not afraid what will happen to him. There are many people before him that were prosecuted because of their faith. There are many, many lies about Medjugorje and about all visionaries on the internet, and of course of Fr. Zovko, Fr. Vlasić etc.
You can read and choose what you want to believe, but I know him personaly - for me it's enough.
God bless you!

Jordanes

It is impossible to give an official position as long as the apparitions are still happening.

Why not? I’ve heard Medjugorje adherent make that claim many times, but we know there are plenty of instances when the Church has ruling that an apparition is spurious or not supernatural while alleged apparitions continued to be reported. There’s no reason to think the Church couldn’t do the same with Medjugorje. After all, the local bishops already issued their judgment that there is no evidence of anything supernatural concerning their alleged apparitions. The scamsters have continued to churn out their daily messages anyway, but that doesn’t mean the bishops didn’t issue their judgment while the alleged apparitions were still going on.

Mike

Peter K had it right: don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. You anti-Medj. folks who dislike fanatics not well versed in the faith who give the faith a bad name are right in doing so. Keep in mind that there are some of us who are very well versed in the faith, are very orthodox and are not "emotionally involved wackos," as some have put it, and who are big believers in Medj. It sounds like most of you who have come down hard on Medj. have done so after speaking with some of these unbalanced supporters.

Rotten Orange, please feel free to list these non-approved apparition sites places where hundreds of documented spontaneous healing from cancer and similar terminal diseases take place. Why don't you folks ever look at the good fruit. Pervan is no longer associated with Medj.

Matheus (a. k. a. Rotten Orange)

Dear Mike

Hold your horses, pal. I'm not a spokesman for everyone here, but for my part I wasn't passing judgment on Medjugorje itself or its believers. It may be a mireculous place, I don't know. What I was opposed on to on my comments was treating the place as if it had full recognition by the Church, when it doesn't have, and doesn't look like it is going to have very soon given the happenings described on this post.

Rotten Orange, please feel free to list these non-approved apparition sites places where hundreds of documented spontaneous healing from cancer and similar terminal diseases take place.

Sorry, but I'm afraid I really don't get the nature of your request.

Paul Baylis

There are rogues everywhere, but let's not get the tar brush out. I'm sure the vatican isn't. But it's interesting to note that Father Vlasic is confined to a Franciscan monastery in Italy and banned from contact with the Queen of Peace community. This perhaps tells us that the Vatican is concerned with keeping the rogues out of something good, not equating one rogue Franciscan with a rogue apparition. The Vatican doesn’t indulge in conspiracy theory and doesn’t throw the baby out with the bath water. The message I get from this is that the Vatican is weeding the garden, not bulldozing it

Paul Baylis

I see the conspiracy theorists are here in full force - Mark Waterincx et al and that awful website semperficatholic.com, which is American conspiracy theory at its lowest. Sensible Catholics, please keep clear of these folks. They don't follow the Vatican and they want the world to know what they think the vatican should know. They are hateful, dirt-dredgers of the worst kind, posing as Catholics. It will annoy them no end if Medjugorje is ever approved. I mean, who are the real fanatics here! it's not the Medjugorje-believers!

Michael Shannon

I don't have time to read all these but Medjugorje is Real. Meaning Mary is appearing to the 6 visionaries, 3 of them daily. Also to 2 inner locutionists or did at one time. Since 27 plus years have gone by I don't know about Jelena and the other. BUT, The priests who sin and get caught, not naming names, can be compared to Judas. Jesus was real and Judas was real. Jesus didn't cease being real because Judas sinned. To wait for the church to rule on the veracity of Medjugorje means you may be dead by the time the church rules and you may be among those who didn't convert as per Mary's advice to pray 3 hours a day go to daily mass, monthly confession etc. Zanic's gain is your pain in Purgatory and Mother Mary's tears in Heaven.

The comment the apparition have no supernatural element are dumb. They all look at one point at the same time, not supernatural? This is supernatural. Try it with 5 people and see if it can be done. Shine a lignt in someones eye and see if their pupils contract. This is supernatural if it doesn't (and you haven't practiced years to acquire this ability as some gurus have purportedly done). You have thus ignored your mother's visitations to the earth to beg for prayer to affect much good in these times of evil. It is hard to discern apparitions but not impossible. The stakes are too high to ignore them. Mary's messages from Medjugorje have me going to daily mass and two prayer groups. A tree is known by its fruit. I can't believe the stupid (pardon my harsh wording) totally stupid remarks I read "dissing" Medjugorje. Mother Mary has taught me, as well as my EX wife taught me not to use that word (STUPID) as it makes me seem stupid especially since it shuts peoples receptivity off, but I am at a loss for words here. If Mary comes to the earth as she did at Fatima and we ignore her messages we have what ? We have 6 million Jewish men women and children brutally massacred because we IGNORED the Five First Saturday devotion and the rosary. I rest my case.

Love in Mary and Jesus (and I mean that)
Mike Shannon

PS are we going to ignore Mary again ?? As I said the stakes are to high NOT to discern. Pray for Father Vlasic and thank God for the seers who have to put up with negative words as in this blog from people who honestly and sincerely don't get it.

Perfect charity has no fear. So forge on and Discern and learn. Many miracles have happened in 27 years of Mary appearing daily to save us from Satan and from ourselves. Thanks be to Jesus and the Trinity for allowing her to come to the earth to prepare us for her Triumph. It will not be painless. So she prepares us and leads us to be like Jesus.

bill912

"I don't have time to read all these..."

Obviously.

Matheus

Nice to see you again, Bill...

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