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July 16, 2007

Comments

ukok

Just one minor correction, the song is 'I'm Gonna Be' as opposed to 'I'll Gonna Be'.

The Proclaimer's recently had a come back with the 80's hit. Peter Kay a UK comedian and Matt Lucas (from 'Little Britain' fame) duet on it. It was in aid of raising funds for the Comic Relief Charity.

Non Brits as well as some Brit's may not 'get' the video, it isn't intended to be offensive. Brit humour, y'know....

For your (and your partners)viewing pleasure :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEMYYNLbEtw

ukok

Incidentally, why not see if you can spot Dr.Who on the video (David Tennant)!

Jordan Potter

Just one minor correction, it's 'The Proclaimers' as opposed to 'The Proclaimer's.'

:-D

I have a cassette of their album, "Sunshine on Leith," which includes the song "I'm Gonna Be." Like a lot of Americans, I was introduced to The Proclaimers through the move "Benny & Joon." Most of the album is very good, though there is at least one song that is inconsistent with the dignity of the human person.

Martin Tohill

welcome to the woarld of instant access. All the time my girls ask me questions and when I don't know, "Daddy look in your palm pilot"

Last night I was reading a sermon by Agustine. Thought that would be safe as it was only several hundred words long. Opps, it had active links to the Catholic Encylopedia.

Jimmy, buy yourself new reading glasses.

Chris

I'm still trying to work out how one would square dance to 500 miles.

Lino

"Afterwards I went to Wal-Mart to get some keys duplicated, and then I had to stand in the ultra-long Sunday afternoon line to check out ..."

Mr. A,
If either (1) you could have gotten the keys duplicated on Saturday or (2) you could have waited until Monday to get them duplicated, I believe that it was sinful -- even grave matter -- for you to have gone to the store for that purpose on Sunday. I believe the current and former popes would (have) support(ed) me on this.

It is against the Third Commandment for us to do unnecessary work or to cause others to do unnecessary work on Sundays.

We ought to do all in our power to make it possible for perhaps 90% of the nation's businesses to stay closed on Sundays, so that their employees may have the day of rest, worship, and service that they need. Only perhaps 10% of businesses (surely not including Wal-Mart) need to be open for necessary work -- e.g., some gas stations, some restaurants, some pharmacies.

If (as seems highly likely) it was unnecessary for you to get the keys made on Sunday, I urge you to repent of your action in sacramental confession. If (as seems highly likely) your first reaction is to disagree with me on this, please pray about it and consult and orthodox priest, showing him what I have written above.

SDG

Hey, I remember that song. From the opening of that Johnny Depp movie Benny & Joon.

Good gracious, I saw that movie, like, once, when it was new. And I still remember the song -- and it's about the only thing I remember from the movie (other than a few impressionistic images, like Johnny Depp doing Chaplin's dinner roll dance, and I think falling off a ladder or something). Music is so powerful.

SDG

Lino:

The toxicity of your post beggars description. Whether for lack of grace, charity or social skills, your post bears no resemblance to how a Christian might reasonably go about trying to bring a possible fault to the attention of a brother. I have no idea what is wrong with you and absolutely no advice on how you might do better.

Monica

We always said 'Whatever work you do on Sunday has to be undone in Purgatory with your teeth'. Which I told my protestant neighbor when he was mucking out the pigpen on a Sunday. (He didn't get the humor at all, but was offended by the purgatory reference.)

Having said that, I just don't see how a stop at Walmart can qualify as a sin. I'll see you in purgatory, Jimmy! :)

Helen

Darn it. Now I have my whole back itchin' after reading that post and the wikipedia description. I'm going to have to get off the computer and find my Chinese back scratcher!

ukok

LOL @ Jordan

Now I feel like I need an 'ology' to leave a comment here. (what's new)I should know by now to super spellcheck all my comments before posting at this place where y'all are super savvy. F'only I hadn't truanted at school.

;-)

Martin Tohill

Lino:This is not as black and white as it seems. In fact, you're wrong. See this post and note the quotes from the Catechism.
http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/07/a_reader_writes_1.html

and read here where Jimmy covers the work/rest issue pretty well:

http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2004/03/housework_on_su.html

But, for my own part, I would also encourage everyone to avoid tasks on Sunday that could be easily done the rest of the week. Certainly it seems that as the Church has turned the judgment over to the faithful, and as society has become even more secularized, Sunday is becoming just one more day. We can all strive to make the day more holy.

BTW: I have a very orthodox priest for a confessor. I know he's orthodox because he agrees with me on everything. :D

Jarnor23

Interesting articles about work on Sunday. I wonder though if it's really to the point of "try not to work on Sunday, and if you do, ah, whatever"...

Also, by shopping on Sunday, we force others to work on Sunday. Sometimes literally force at the cost of losing their jobs. I have to worry about this, even if it's technically allowed I'm not sure it's something to be encouraged.

Of course, I live in a state where they still enforce retail businesses to be shut on Sunday morning so everyone who wants to can worship. That is nice in North Dakota. Unfortunately our "freethinker" types who also want to remove the courthouse Ten Commandments want to get rid of that. Also, it doesn't seem to cover professionals or service workers, so many have to still work Sunday due to their bosses or work policies. Including my wife, which literally makes only one Mass we can make that counts for Sunday. Thank God, literally, for the 7:30 PM Mass at one parish.

Martin Tohill

I wonder though if it's really to the point of "try not to work on Sunday, and if you do, ah, whatever"...

I would say the point is to try not to work on Sunday but if you see others shopping and working then give the most Charitable interpretation possible.

Dan

James,
Over on Catholic World News,the headline reads:
"Pope Benedict uses the older ritual for his private Mass".
Mary Kate:I hope you are reading this.You once doubted me when I told you that a priest friend of my family assisted many times, at Holy Mass with His Holiness in his private chapel,in the Classical Rite.
God bless you.

Esau

You once doubted me when I told you that a priest friend of my family assisted many times, at Holy Mass with His Holiness in his private chapel,in the Classical Rite.

Dan,

I'm curious -- what's the name of your priest friend?

Dan

Esau,
He is a Jesuit missionary named Father Debaney.
God bless you

Esau

Dan,

Thanks for the info!
God bless you, too!

I am just so excited about the recent developments as well.

The associate pastor of my Novus Ordo Church has fantastically put out in our church bulletin an article about the Motu Proprio and that he would accept any of our requests for the ancient Tridentine Rite.

Hopefully, the Classical Roman Rite will actually be celebrated there; however, it will not be without its difficulties.

There seems to be logistical considerations that may hinder a correct celebration of the Tridentine at our Church from my point-of-view.

Amongst other things, the altar in our Church might not be so well positioned for ad orientem. =^(

Trish

Where else could you find a discussion of technology, the morality of shopping on Sunday and itching all in one post and comment line? That's why I love reading your blog.

I still haven't made the transition to a phone with internet service - but the fact that you're finding yourself with the urge to look things up at all times of the day -- and in all situations -- makes me a little reluctant to make the transition. Although it is a great tool - providing so much information so easily - I already find that I waste too much time on the internet.

Lino

Steve, I was deeply disappointed in your inappropriate response to my post. I previously had much more respect for you than I now will have, unless you were just having a bad day.

You wrote, "The toxicity of your post beggars description."

There was no "toxicity" in my post. I used temperate language, with a multiplicity of "if" and "if not" conditions, to be as charitable as possible and to avoid making assumptions.

You wrote, "Whether for lack of grace, charity or social skills, your post bears no resemblance to how a Christian might reasonably go about trying to bring a possible fault to the attention of a brother."

You are wrong. Ironically, it was your post to me that shows a lack of grace, charity, or social skills, because you flat-out accused me unjustly, whereas I never directly accused Mr. A of anything. I always said, "If" you have done "A," then "B" is true. You, on the other hand, wrongly said, "Lino, you HAVE done A."

You closed by saying, "I have no idea what is wrong with you and absolutely no advice on how you might do better."

Once again, you snidely and unjustly accuse, because there is nothing wrong with me. I can believe that you have no advice, because, if you had some, you would use it to reform your own behavior.

God be with you. LL

Christopher Sarsfield

Lino,

Perhaps it would have been more prudent to send Mr. Akin a private email, instead of posting your correction on the web. I also doubt the reference to "grave matter." To miss Mass on Sunday is grave matter, to stop at Wal-Mart unnecessarily, I do not think so. Perhaps you could give me a reference for your belief, beside a vague reference to Popes and telling me to go to an orthodox priest. My our Lady keep you forever in the blue shadow of her mantle.

KWS

This hits on something I've struggled with off and on, namely, studiousness vs. curiosity.

I came across an article long ago that referred to curiosity as a vice, specifically as a "promiscuity of the mind," and opposed to the virtue of studiousness. I'm curious (ha!) as to what y'all's take on the following from the Summa is:

(II-II Q.167 a.2)

1. Man's good consists in the knowledge of truth; yet man's sovereign good consists, not in the knowledge of any truth, but in the perfect knowledge of the sovereign truth, as the Philosopher states (Ethic. x, 7,8). Hence there may be sin in the knowledge of certain truths, in so far as the desire of such knowledge is not directed in due manner to the knowledge of the sovereign truth, wherein supreme happiness consists.

There are other pertinent sections in the vicinity of question 167.

I reckon there's a balance to be struck: if you're spending hours surfing the internet comparing the best possible way to zest a lemon, you've gone too far. But has the internet, on the whole, helped us in our studiousness or our curiosity? I know I've had to have blackouts from time to time to regain a certain "reprioritization," and it sounds like an iPhone would be a step in the wrong direction for me.

What do you think?

KWS

Clarification: I'm not intending any judgment on Jimmy's post -- just interested in the community's thoughts on curiosity vs. studiousness with regards to the internet.

Esquire

Lino,

Not that you should care what I think, but I too read your post as extremely uncharitable, in addition to being misguided ("ifs" notwithstanding).

In fact, re-reading the posts, I find you taking umbrage at SDG's post to be quite ironic.

Given the public forum in which you posted your advice to Jimmy, SDG's public admonition was quite appropriate.

SDG

Lino, maybe I was having a bad day. I was stunned by the wrongheadedness of your post and meant to write a sharp reply, but I did feel later that my rhetoric was over the top. I apologize.

That said, your comments were so off base that a sharp reply was called for, and the substance of what I wrote stands. I make no apology for that.

Opining that action X is sinful, even grave matter, is potentially within the pale. Posting on someone's blog (someone who is not your pastoral responsibility and hasn't asked your opinion) that it is "highly likely" that he specifically needs to repent in sacramental confession -- and that, in the likely event that he disagrees with you, he needs to pray about it and consult an orthodox priest over the points you have raised -- is breathtakingly wrongheaded, presumptuous and caustic.

"Lacking grace, charity or social skills" still seems to me a sober assessment of the effect of your approach. Temperateness of tone mends nothing in this regard -- nor does a multiplicity of conditional clauses, when you've weighed in so heavily on the presumptive probabilities against the arraigned.

As for what you call my "flat-out accusation," I judged only the inappropriateness of your behavior. I wouldn't begin to presume to speculate on whether or not you need to go to confession. That I leave to you to judge.

I think I'm usually happy to try to reform my behavior, and the irony that the present situation gives me a chance to try to do so hadn't escaped me. Whether you in turn see the irony of your own mote-and-log effort to "help" Jimmy is up to you.

Esau

SDG,

Having read Lino's comments, I focussed on his exhortation:

"I urge you to repent of your action in sacramental confession."

Now, this is where I believe there may be a clash between traditional Catholics and the Catholics of today -- not that there is something wrong with either, but that there are certain (for lack of a better word) "cultural" barriers.

It seems Lino here may have been practicing the Works of Mercy: "Admonish the Sinner".

If this was indeed the case, it may be more than likely, Lino was caring for Jimmy's soul and his well-being and that perhaps this might be why he exhorted Jimmy in this manner.

I am only acquainted with this manner of behaviour since there have been those in the days who similarly practiced the "Admonish the Sinner" in this fashion where they urged folks to pray about something and if indeed they were wrong in their action, to go to confess it to a priest.

Now, if I hadn't in the past experienced such Catholic episodes as these, I would have likely interpreted Lino's exhortation in the same manner as many have misinterpreted here, thinking that he was being uncharitable.

SDG

Esau: Plenty of sinners (and non-sinners) have been "admonished" in uncharitable, graceless, and/or tactless ways. Just calling something "admonishing the sinner" (or at least attempting to admonish a presumed/likely/possible sinner) does not mean that it has been done charitably, gracefully and tactfully (as I fear, alas, my first post to Lino more than demonstrated in its own right, and as Lino's post to Jimmy also demonstrates).

Remember the parable of the mote and the log: The man with the log in his eye was attempting to "care for the well-being" of the man with the mote in his own eye.

The duty to admonish the sinner does not abrogate other duties, including prudence, humility, and consideration. As I noted above, one can adequately seek to call the attention of a possible sinner to his possible sin by saying "I believe action X is sinful" without telling him right out of the gate that he likely needs to go to confession, and if he disagrees he needs to pray about it and get a second opinion from a priest. If Jimmy needed to go to confession, he is more than capable of coming to that conclusion himself, without the public instruction of others. To presume otherwise is (in effect) presumptuous, uncharitable and rude.

Esau

SDG,

That's where the "cultural" barrier I mentioned in my comments above comes into play.

This is why I do not actually blame you and others here (unfamiliar with this traditional upbringing of Catholics) for taking them in the manner that you have.

In fact, I would have castigated Lino as severely as you have here had I not been acquainted with where Lino might be coming from.

To explain, the reason why Lino's statement struck me as oddly familiar is because of how he formulated his plea. I remember how priests, nuns, etc. in the old days would admonish their pupils:

"If action X was wrong, I urge you to repent of your action in sacramental confession.

If you believe there is no error in what you've done, please pray about it and consult and orthodox priest."

The idea that was often taught here by traditional Catholics is care for the well-being of the soul; for one's own and others.

Though, I've go to admit, it does seem that his additions "as seems highly likely" appears to be seemingly judgmental:


"If (as seems highly likely) it was unnecessary for you to get the keys made on Sunday, I urge you to repent of your action in sacramental confession. If (as seems highly likely) your first reaction is to disagree with me on this, please pray about it and consult and orthodox priest, showing him what I have written above."


I don't expect you to understand because you didn't grow up with the same experiences as I have in this regard.

Again, I do not blame you for your actions here.

Without any familiarity with this type of traditional Catholic culture, how could you know?

SDG

Esau,

Based on the traditional background you cite, I'm sure you realize that priests and nuns in the old days talking to "their people" are in a different position pastorally than a comment poster posting in a blogger's combox. It's kind of like how the way I as a father speak to my children is very different from how I speak to my coworkers or neighbors, or even to my neighbor's children. Those who have the responsibility of the care and governance of others have different obligations and different privileges.

AFAIK, Lino is not a priest or nun, and Jimmy is not "his people." In the present circumstances, to presume to take such a pastoral and exhortative role in the specific manner in question is inappropriate, to say the least. (I am not saying laypeople can never exhort each other in any manner or under any circumstances. Those with ears to hear, let them hear.)

Furthermore, if even a priest or nun in the old days singled out a particular person in public and exhorted him in a manner equivalent to what was said in the post above, based only on the testimony given, without any effort first to raise the subject in a less confrontational and less presumptuous way, I would consider that inexcusable (though not of course unforgivable).

Esau

SDG,

Of course you would consider that inexcusable because that's a point-of-view that primarily comes from your culture, your Protestant upbringing, where you came from, which I very much respect.

Think about this way, I remember an episode in Star Trek: Entreprise (which I only watched a few episodes then) where the engineering guy was getting all upset and bothered by how this alien mother was wacking at her kid on the back (or something like that).

He actually considered what the mother was doing an abuse. However, as T'Pol later advised him, that's how it worked in the mother's culture in order to ween the kid off her (or something like that).

You see, from an outsider's point-of-view, it just seemed all wrong.

Yet, there is also the possibility that perhaps Lino isn't actually a traditionally brought-up Catholic after all, in which case, what I've said here may not even apply.

SDG

Esau: I'm not sure you're following me.

Brother D.

Jimmy, I'm curious if your "partner" is a man or a woman...

KGalbraith

If you want an iPhone and don't need the phone... wait a month.

Elaine

I don't expect you to understand because you didn't grow up with the same experiences as I have in this regard.

Should we call in Andrew?

Esau

SDG,

I believe you're not following me as well.

In Religion classes, they always taught you that if you really cared for your neighbor, you would care most of all for the well-being of their soul.

That was one of the principle reasons why "Admonish the Sinner" was so important and why it should be the Christian's prerogative.

This is perhaps the principle that Lino was operating under.

It would be comparable to how when I was in Protestant church, we used to go around handing out pamphlets and trying to save souls in that regard.

I cannot explain in words just how it once was in the past, how Catholics were traditionally brought up to you because what used to be no longer is.

Therefore, you do not see Catholics of today acting in the same manner as Lino is here. Thus, such actions are perceived as being rather foreign to those who are not acquainted with the manner in which he acted.

There were many things that used to be done that was normative behaviour for Catholics.

For example, do you know why Catholic churches way back then used to have their bells ring at around 8:00 pm at nite?

SDG

The points from my last two posts still apply, irrespective of the considerations you've raised, Esau. The basic principles I've cited are largely independent of culturally relative considerations.

Esau

Should we call in Andrew?

I believe Elaine's derisive comment here is sufficient notice for me to quit in my treatment of the subject matter here, less I suffer more jeers from the peanut gallery.

Esau

SDG:

If I burped out loud after having dinner at your place in front of your family, would you consider that rude?

Lino

Thank you for your support, Esau. You grasped what I was trying to do, and you know the "culture" from which I come. Also, thanks for calling to my attention my improper use (twice) of the phrase "as seems likely." I should not have made such semi-assumptions, and I apologize to Mr. A for them.

SDG, Esquire, and Christopher, I must (continue to) disagree with you.

Christopher, you wrote: "Perhaps it would have been more prudent to send Mr. Akin a private email, instead of posting your correction on the web."

I decided not to do that because of the urgency of notifying all readers of the impropriety of shopping unnecessarily on Sundays. People rarely, if ever, are reminded of this. Blog threads drop off into near obscurity so quickly.

C, you also wrote: "I also doubt the reference to 'grave matter.' To miss Mass on Sunday is grave matter, to stop at Wal-Mart unnecessarily, I do not think so."

If Mr. A were an ordinary Catholic layman, I would agree with you. But, because of three special factors present in this case, I said that "I believe" -- not that I was judging it to be certain -- that "grave matter" was involved.

The factors?
(1) Mr. A is an apologist who has read the relevant documents and ought to know better than to shop unnecessarily (if he did) on Sunday.
(2) Mr. A has a blog read by many (thousands?), to whom he has a special duty to give good example. He must take EXTRA precautions to avoid leading readers into copying potentially sinful behaviors. If his shopping was truly necessary, he should have explained the circumstances (or he should have avoided mentioning the word "Sunday").
(3) A prominent Catholic like Mr. A ought to be one of many leaders of a worldwide effort to persuade almost all businesses (including Wal-Mart) to stay closed on Sundays.

I remembered, Steve, after leaving my last post, that you and Mr. A are quite a bit younger than I am. Thus, you may have lived your whole lives in a "post-Christian society," in which you have always seen (and visited) open businesses of all kinds on Sundays. This could explain (though not excuse) an overreaction to my comments.

I am not what most Catholics call a "traditionalist" (e.g., as regards the liturgy), but I am old enough [over 55] to know what it was like to grow up in a world in which 99% of the businesses were closed on Sunday -- out of respect for almighty God and to help people get the physical and mental rest that they needed. Having learned, under nuns wearing habits, from the "Baltimore Catechism," and having also been a student during Vatican II, I understand more than one Catholic culture and mentality.

Esau, I suspect that my posts have made some people feel (or have reminded some people that they have always felt) subconsciously guilty about shopping on Sundays. But instead of having the courage to admit that they have been doing wrong, I suspect that they went into "denial" and tried to deflect their own (and lurkers') attention by criticizing me. That's OK. I can handle it, but I hope that their repressed guilt will eventually help them to change!

I have noticed that some people here give far, far too much thought (and spill far too much ink) in an effort to reprimand people for the manner in which they post -- and/or for having posted at all! This too may be a generation-gap thing, in which older people like me aren't afraid to speak with "tough love" (like Jesus, St. Paul, and St. John the Baptist), while the younger -- having been raised in a more "sissified," Kumbaya culture -- cannot bear anything but very gentle treatment.

For some, there seems to be such a great obsession with this (style and/or the right of someone to criticize a perceived sin) that the an obsessed person usually forgets to pay sufficient attention to the "meat" of the comments to which they object. I recommend that this be ended, through an effort of the will. LL

Inocencio

I would just like to give the quotation from the Baltimore Catechism #4 for context.

222. Q. Which are the chief spiritual works of mercy?
A. The chief spiritual works of mercy are seven: to admonish the sinner, to instruct the ignorant, to counsel the doubtful, to comfort the sorrowful, to bear wrongs patiently, to forgive all injuries, and to pray for the living and the dead.

"To admonish the sinner." If we love our neighbor we should help him in his distress, even when it is an inconvenience to us. We should help him also to correct his faults, we should point them out and warn him of them. We are obliged to do so in the following circumstances: First. When his fault is a mortal sin. Second. When we have some authority or influence over him. Third. When there is reason to believe that our warning will make him better instead of worse. If our advice only makes him worse, then we should not say anything to him about his fault, but keep out of his company ourselves.

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

SDG

Esau: Not particularly, no. And, again, it doesn't affect the principles in my earlier emails, which again, are not hugely affected by culturally relative considerations.

Lino:

1. Appreciate the apology for the semi-assumptions.

2. I assure you that I am as allergic to "Kumbaya culture" as anyone, and I have never been accused of lacking bluntness (quite the contrary).

3. I do not believe age is the factor here you allege; I doubt if fewer oldsters than youngsters would take umbrage at the style of the post I objected to. (On a related note, as I close on 40 I look forward to the inevitability of having my actions increasingly ascribed to cranky or sentimental old age rather than callow and inexperienced youth. For that matter, your own views could easily be contextualized against an age-based model, not that I have any intention of doing so.)

4. Gentleness (along with discretion, prudence, humility and courtesy) are not byproducts of the Spirit of Vatican II(TM). Plenty of saints have urged them down through the ages. Plenty of saints have also spectacularly failed to exemplify them. I try to be encouraged by the latter and inspired by the former.

5. By way of contribution to ending the thread, I will continue not to cross-examine your articulation of your views on Sunday and related issues.

Esau

Lino:

Thank you for your support, Esau. You grasped what I was trying to do, and you know the "culture" from which I come. Also, thanks for calling to my attention my improper use (twice) of the phrase "as seems likely." I should not have made such semi-assumptions, and I apologize to Mr. A for them.


Lino,

To be fair, keep in mind that had I not been familiar with that sort of exhortation, I would've acted in the very same manner as others have here.

As times have changed and this sort of exhortation is not the normative behaviour of Catholics today, certainly, folks unfamiliar with what you were trying to do would take offense at such an action due to their not being exposed to this manner of behaviour from other Catholics.

Again, the only reason why I'm familiar with what you were trying to do is because of nuns who acted in a similar manner as you had here, who had actually taught their students to do the same when it came to our fellow classmates.

I can recall when after having gone through those lessons, classmates would look after other classmates and when they believed the others were doing something that may be sinful, they would formulate an exhortation in a manner similar to what you had here and speak to their fellow classmates about it in front of everybody else at the public schoolyard in order to talk about what the sister said and what the person in question was doing.

It's a little similar to how some Protestants do the same when it comes to other fellow Protestants in certain actions they take to keep the other honest in their walk with the Lord.

All in all, it's the change in Catholic Culture in America that has made such behaviour alien to even today's Catholics who are especially unfamiliar to it since it's no longer typical behaviour for the average Catholic and so it strikes them as odd and even offensive, which is understandable given these new circumstances we find ourselves in.

This is why I believe that although your actions may not be fundamentally wrong (although, as mentioned, you may have worded your exhortation better without the seemingly judgmental terminology) and as you were caring for another's soul it may even have been considered admirable, SDG and the others were essentially not wrong in their actions as well.

Next time, if you will be performing such works of mercy in the future, you might consider doing them with a little more delicacy and operating with the kind of charity that's more in line with today's culture, such as privately communicating to the person.

God bless.

John

It was posted:

"I cannot explain in words just how it once was in the past, how Catholics were traditionally brought up to you because what used to be no longer is.

Therefore, you do not see Catholics of today acting in the same manner as Lino is here. Thus, such actions are perceived as being rather foreign to those who are not acquainted with the manner in which he acted."


Oh so true, as when one tries to point something sinful out (and I wonder if the uproar over Lino's comment directed at Jimmy A is a little brown nosing, but that is an assumption on my part only) the Catholics on this blog and in general claim you are being judgemental and righteous, where in yesteryear it was the norm

The same goes for mass, as I hear all of these lame complaints as to why someone should actually have to go to the Mass as handed down through the ages (TLM) which is longer, makes you pay attention as you have to follow in your missal, much more kneeling, lines longer fo communion, no lay ministers or readers, etc-the complainers are coming out of the woodwork left and right as Catholics today think everything should be made nice and easy

Next time you think that way when you are in church at your 30 minute mass in English with no kneelers-just take a look up at the crucifix (do the modern church's still have them or the "risen christ??) and look at that mans suffering he went through for you and me and ask if you could not spare a little more kneeling in mass or tell that kid in the Novus Ordo mass in shorts and flip flops that they should shut off that cellphone and come to church in proper attire

Esau

SDG:

In cultures as in America, burping is considered, among other things, rude.

When somebody burps after having dinner:

- In American culture, one understandably thinks, "How rude that we had fed this person and he shows us a lack of appreciation and respect by this awfully offensive gesture!"

- In other cultures, one understandably thinks, "How polite that we had fed this person and he shows us great appreciation and respect by this tremendously kind gesture!"


Those who have actually seen the Movie Ben Hur would be familiar with the latter reference.


Similarly, when somebody says:

"If action X was wrong, I urge you to repent of your action in sacramental confession.

If you believe there is no error in what you've done, please pray about it and consult an orthodox priest."

- In today's Catholic Culture, one would understandably think, "What an awful hypocrite! How offensive that this person publically humiliate me, scrutinizing me this way!"

- In yesterday's Catholic Culture (at least, the one I grew up in), one would understandably think, "What a great Christian! How considerate that this person cares so much for the well-being of my soul and looking after me this way!"


At any rate, you seem to take offense that Lino had done his exhortation publically.

During my days, Catholics (traditionally brought up) did likewise, in front of everybody, whether it was at a public schoolyard or in class.

(*Please note: when I speak of traditional Catholics here, I don't necessarily mean the Tridentine kind.)

In fact, we were encouraged to act out in this manner since we were taught to function as a community, which was one of the reasons why we were supposed to look out for each other in the first place because of this notion of community, coming together as God's Family.

(Need I remind you that in the early church, the Christians truly acted as one community and that confessions were done publically?)

There were many reasons why exhorting a brother/sister was done publically (at least, in those days).

For one, it was a learning experience for all.

It taught us the value of what it meant to be a Christian Family and, thus, we looked after our classmates, our brothers and sisters, in this manner.

Interestingly enough, when we exhorted one another publically, we actually were very appreciative of it because it meant that we actually cared about not only the well-being of the soul of that person in question but others in our Christian Family as well (all our fellow classmates) as it reminded everybody else to keep focus on the Lord even in our ordinary lives.

(Of course, we were very naive then, thinking that the whole world was this one big Christian Family.)

Second, it helped us to actively discuss the religion lessons that the nuns were teaching us such as the life of the saint that day (e.g., St. Dominic Savio) and the New Testament passages we were learning.

There are, of course, several other reasons.

But, I don't believe that anything I say here will convince you.

We come from different cultures, one of which is already extinct.

Why do I say extinct?

For one, do the church bells ring at 8:00 pm at night?

No.

Church bells use to ring at around 8 pm at nite in order to admonish the faithful to pray for the souls in Purgatory, whereupon the Requiem aeternam is recited for the souls of the dead (think of it as the Jewish Qaddish prayer for the dead).

Now, certainly, because Catholics today no longer practice this, if you were to actually encounter one who still adhered to this practice, their actions would strike you as odd as Lino's because it's no longer typical behaviour for today's Catholics.

Kevin

Wow, this thread really brought them out of the woodwork. Who thought a single trip to Wal-Mart could cause so much consternation.

I nominate those who have taken it upon themselves to act as spiritual advisers to the rest of us sinful slobs to air their sins publicly so that we may all admonish them properly. After all, some appear to think it is better to chastise sinners publicly, so I invite you to put your money where your mouth is and confess publicly. I would also ask that you give your full, real name, place of residence, and a mailing address. After all, the fine author of this blog has done nothing less. In this manner we can all make sure everyone knows your identity so that we can properly humiliate -- I'm sorry, admonish -- you. While you're at it, please give us the name of the seminary from which you earned your degree in theology.

Seriously, if a thread ever needed to have a stake driven through its heart, it's this one. Talk about getting off-topic!

Tim J.

I think Lino could have accomplished everything he wanted - without all the hubbub - merely by presenting his thoughts in the form of a question... "Are you sure you should have been doing that on Sunday, Jimmy?".

Just the manner in which his original post was written seemed unnecessarily condescending... Jimmy knows what to do if he has sinned, he doesn't need to be educated in that regard.

Similarly, only Jimmy is in any position to know whether he sinned or not - even a little - in running his errand on Sunday.

Esau

In this manner we can all make sure everyone knows your identity so that we can properly humiliate -- I'm sorry, admonish -- you.

Kevin,

Did you even read my comments?

I apologize that a sinner as awful as I tried to invoke some charitable understanding on the part of Lino here.

I don't see how my comments actually said (or even imply) that I was better than anybody here or that I was so holy than all others.

Perhaps if I was as awesome a Christian as you are, I could have said something.

This is why "Admonish the Sinner" thing should just be stricken from the Works of Mercy, because there is always this type of response from others.

People complain why priests don't do homilies that talk down sin.

This is precisely the reason why -- because folks in the pues will just say, "How dare that hypocrite preach to me about sin!"

Again, please point to me where I actually said that I was better than the rest of the folks here?

If anything, I have often voiced my admiration for many folks here -- especially Jimmy Akin whom I only have respect for.

My comments were merely an attempt to provide some understanding on where Lino might be coming from; that's all.

If you still feel that trying to provide some understanding on the part of a fellow brother in Christ was wrong and that you won't be satisfied until you humiliate me in turn, go ahead.

You can do so publically here.

Just look at my past comments, there is much to make fun of.

Jarnor23

Kevin: I would encourage you to look at the explanation of this activity. It's caused me to think a bit about it.

While my background was protestant, it was from the mealy-mouthed feel good wishy-washy ELCA type where nobody could say anything you did was sinful really, and everything was "just between me and God". Well, between you and me, I was making God out to be a lot more groovy with everything I wanted Him to be and only really hated people who judged me, er, I mean others, yeah. :)

Honestly, I'm thinking accountability to God and community may make for a better person. Looking back on it, I think I've learned some of my hardest, painful, yet most important lessons from a Christian brother calling me out for my actions due to his love. That and confession, which has this way of awakening one. Your sins that didn't seem so bad suddenly seem awful embarrassing saying to a priest, don't they? Has a way of showing you the truth of the matter.

While it's being "nice" I'm not sure saying nothing is really helping people. And as far as hypocrisy goes, I think if a person admits they're as big a sinner or worse, are trying to do better, but still wants to help a brother out, it's HONESTY. Calling someone trying to help you out who doesn't deny their own fault isn't spotting hypocrisy, it's not wanting to admit your own faults and taking out the messenger.

Esau

Kevin:

After all, some appear to think it is better to chastise sinners publicly, so I invite you to put your money where your mouth is and confess publicly.

Yes, I know, that dumb nun was just a whore --that's all -- trying to impose her beliefs on others.

How dare she try to teach her students the best way she knew how about lessons regarding "Admonish the Sinner" and acting as a community, as part of God's Family, and looking after one another's well-being!

How dare that I even attempt to provide some understanding of what might have been done in those days that might have led to this kind of behaviour from certain folks just so that people unfamiliar could gain some understanding of where their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who were traditionally brought up might be coming from!

In fact, trying to shed some understanding on the part of a brother and sister in Christ is just abhorrent to Christian Fellowship!

We should NEVER try to understand people and where they might be coming from!

We should ALWAYS operate on mere HATRED and MISUNDERSTANDINGS!

Esau

Just the manner in which his original post was written seemed unnecessarily condescending... Jimmy knows what to do if he has sinned, he doesn't need to be educated in that regard.

Similarly, only Jimmy is in any position to know whether he sinned or not - even a little - in running his errand on Sunday.


Tim J.,

That's where I believe Lino went wrong.

His intentions were fundamentally good, but I believe, as my previous comments have mentioned, that his exhortation came off seemingly judgmental.

When we were taught to exhort others back then, the judgment of whether or not the action that person took was wrong belonged to the person himself. Among other things, this gave the person accountability (aside from the obvious fact that it is only he who can make/and should make that decision himself).

That's the very reason why we would ask them to pray about it and that, if there were any doubts, to consult an orthodox priest.

This is similar to how when I was in Protestant church, the minister would often tell us amidst some concern, to pray about it.

This is why I am tremendously thankful to God for the journey He has guided me through because having been in both worlds, the Catholic and the Protestant, I can see certain similarities, as my previous comments here have mentioned.

When we walk with the Lord, it is not just I and God, but we walk as fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

It's not unlike the thought that St. Thomas More invoked when he hoped that in the end (now I'm paraphrasing here greatly), all of Christendom might one day be re-unified under one Christian Family, healed of all divisions.

Inocencio

May I make two suggestions.

First, please remember that we will all be accountable for every idle word and without charity we are noisy gongs.

Second, in an attempt to get back on topic can all futher comments about work on Sundays be posted on threads discussing the topic of work on Sundays. Martin Tohill was kind enough to point out two of them.

Sunday Money For College

Housework on Sundays

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Esquire

Since St. Thomas More's name has been invoked, I feel compelled to point out that he took a little bit different approach to admonishing sinners than I see for the most part on this thread.

Kevin

Hi Jarnor, thanks for your posts. They are well-reasoned and well-written. It was interesting to hear your perspective and background as a former Protestant. My problem with some of these posts is that folks are trying to impose their wrong-headed opinions of the Third Commandment on others! To you folks, go read what the CCC says about "work" on Sunday. Jarnor's links above will also help. Also read the article on Fraternal Correction on New Advent. Public excoriation should be reserved to special circumstances, and Jimmy's post is not one of those occasions.

As to Esau's posts, all I will say is that I regret that he became so angry from my remarks, but I stand by what I said. Tim Jones is correct that any concern about Jimmy's actions should have been expressed privately via email. With that, I wish you all well, most especially Esau, and look forward to hearing about Jimmy's continued adventures with his iPhone!

Esau

Kevin,

Thanks for your warm wishes.

I didn't intend to justify Lino's action, only to provide some possible understanding as regards it.

That said, I, too, would like to hear more of Jimmy's adventures with his iPhone!

Kevin

Esau, Amen brother. I wrote my remarks hastily. I truly feel bad about making you angry. Peace.

Lino

Hi, Esau.
In your response to me, you wrote, "Next time, if you will be performing such works of mercy in the future, you might consider doing them with a little more delicacy and operating with the kind of charity that's more in line with today's culture, such as privately communicating to the person."

Well, no. The last two paragraphs of my last message show clearly that I will not "consider" that. The reason is that I don't accept what you refer to as "today's culture," for I do not consider that way of acting to be Christian/Catholic. I will take Jesus and the saints as my role models instead.

God be with you. LL

Esau

Lino:

As you can tell by this thread alone, to continue to conduct yourself in ways as it was back then would actually be counter-productive.

That is why I recommended that you merely conduct yourself in a manner that's more conducive to your objective, such as adopting certain customs that are more in keeping with today. Think of it like how US ambassadors need to acquaint and align themselves to the cultures of other peoples in order to foster understanding and peace.

This is why I said:

"Next time, if you will be performing such works of mercy in the future, you might consider doing them with a little more delicacy and operating with the kind of charity that's more in line with today's culture, such as privately communicating to the person."

Doing otherwise, more than helping others, you might just end up provoking the same kind of misunderstanding as you see here instead of accomplishing your goal.

As said, I can understand where you're coming from.

You know, the old question from Genesis that was asked by Cain “Am I my brother’s keeper?”

Of course, we should all ask ourselves and the answer being “Of course! Absolutely!” We have a responsibility as human beings.

Even if we were to leave the bible out of this for a second, as human beings, we have a natural inclination – and that’s a good thing – one of the five natural inclinations that we have is to live in community and if you’re going to live in community, you have to help your neighbor in that community.

I mean, the Bible tells me, for example, if you look at Ezekiel Chapter 33 in the Old Testament, I think it’s right around verses 18 and 19, where God says to the prophet: “If you see your brother in sin, you don’t warn him, he’ll die in his sin but his blood I will require at your hands.” We see that repeated in the New Testament in 1 Timothy 16 and elsewhere.

However, as I previously mentioned, you might want to consider conducting yourself in a manner more fruitful to the endeavor.

God bless.

Tuan

Just be careful where you are surfing with your iPhone:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/23/technology/23iphone.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

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