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June 07, 2007

Comments

LaSalle

I've tried talking to them online over this precise issue (I live in Singapore and travel to Malaysia often.)

They are simply beyond reason. When I asked if there was freedom to leave a religion one reply I got was "That is not "freedom", that is considered treason against the Ummah. And there is only one punishment for treason."

From what I gather, their idea of religious freedom is that they allow other religions to exist in their country .. it doesn't mean that everyone gets to choose whatever religion they want.

It's sad actually.

Brian

"That is not "freedom", that is considered treason against the Ummah. And there is only one punishment for treason."

I don't at all support the policies that violate religious freedom, but we kind of make the same argument with abortion. Choosing abortion isn't freedom, it's murder.

I know there's a difference in the two because we proclaim that God created us free to choose to serve Him or rebel against Him. So while we allow people to make that choice, we also say that the freedom is choosing to serve God. Choosing to rebel isn't freedom, it's rightly called sin. Can someone smarter than me highlight these differences and also show how our opposition to abortion is not the same as Malaysia's opposition to people choosing to not follow Islam?

bill bannon

Vatican II in a brief passage was quite lopsided on Islam and left one with the impression that since they were Abrahamic and monotheist, they could be saved if they struggled as best they could with their conscience. Which is true technically but no mention was made of the facets of the religion which incline strongly toward not being saved and toward sin and domination and quite frankly toward forms of murder in the objective order. Turns out that what was said of Islam may be said of virtually any religion...and frankly LOL, I don't see the heretical Jehovah Witnesses virulently punishing apostates and there was nary a line about them in the Council as to being saved if they struggled to live in conscience. Which all proves Yves Congar's point that Councils are not inspired by the Holy Spirit but are guided by Him and are not complete and could have said things differently or better.

paul f

Proves?

bill bannon

Let me ignore Paul as I do ignore all the clever who can't write complete posts and let me explain why I reacted in terms of murder. Sudan and Mauritania include in their penal codes the death penalty for apostasy. And many Islamic commentators approve it also.

bill912

I'm with Paul. I don't see your point.

Damascus Boy

Sadly this is not an isolated case in one Muslim country, it is the norm in Muslim majority states Jihad Watch for examples. Also see Middle East Media Research Institute for the regular diet of anti-semitic hatred on Middle-Eastern TV.

What is even more shameful is that very few Muslims in democracies are willing, or feel safe enough, to condemn these outrages done in the name of their religion. A courageous exception is Irshad Manji. In her book The Trouble with Islam Today she says that Muslims individually and collectively have to be challenged to make clear condemnations - as clearly as the Pope at Regensburg or the Danish cartoons.

We have to be willing to charitably ask our Muslim friends whether the Quranic statement that "There is no compulsion in religion" includes being allowed to leave Islam without any civil penalty or threats or whether 'Slay the apostates wherever you find them" applies. Manji warns against allowing wriggling equivocal answers about what is permissible in Muslim States. She says progressive Muslims need to be encouraged to support human rights.

But what is most shameful are those so-called liberals who support the freedom to criticize and vilify Christianity and its sacred icons, but do not allow critical intellectual discussion about Islam because it is 'Islamophobic'. We should not hate Muslims as people, but we can hate an ideology or particular interpretations of it.

The problem is not Muslims it is Islam itself according to
Faith Freedom (a site run by atheist/agnostic ex-Muslims many of whom are native Arabic speakers, who cut through the defense about 'Arabic is a difficult language to understand ...) and
Answering Islam an Evangelical Christian site.
Both have huge resources for anyone in contact with Muslim missionaries, and those involved in inter-faith dialog. Inter-faith dialog with most religions is usually a 'compare and contrast' without attempting to proseletize, with Muslims it often becomes a one-sided attempt to convert you.

The cause of the problem is example of Muhammad. Unlike Jesus or Buddah, Muhammad got absulute political power in his lifetime. It took over three centuries before Christians got power and started to misuse it. Muhammad executed hundreds of prisoners of war after they surrendered (Banu Qurazya), gave non-Muslims in Arabia the choice of conversion, death or exile - Muhammad's followers were a bit more tolerant. Muhammad captured civilian females as war booty and kept them as sex slaves/concubines. He consumated his marriage to one of his wives when she was 9. All this is recorded in the Sahih Hadith, by his admirers.

Maybe his behavior was better than most rulers, but the Quran says he is the perfect man and a model for humanity. Fortunately, most Muslims have an idealized view of him and don't know the true details.

Say "Islam is the religion of peace" - or we'll kill you.

bill bannon

DB
Very good post. I hope you're not actually in Damascus.

JD

From the "Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam" adopted and issued by the Nineteenth Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers in Cairo, 1990."

The totality of statements on Religious Freedom, article 10
"Islam is the religion of unspoiled nature. It is forbidden to exercise any form of compulsion on man or to exploit his poverty or ignorance in order to convert him to another religion or to atheism."

That is all.

Jason

From what I gather, their idea of religious freedom is that they allow other religions to exist in their country...it doesn't mean that everyone gets to choose whatever religion they want.

It's sad actually.

How is this a uniquely Muslim problem? If a Catholic wanted to become a Muslim in Medievel Christendom, would he be allowed to? As Christians we have developed, but it's not like we haven't had similar issues.

Dr. Eric

Jason has a point, with a few exceptions. Spain and Sicily both were tolerant of Islam.

The Spanish Inquisition only targeted false converts to Catholicism who were "moles" (not mole "Moh-lay") to subvert Catholics and new converts.

Alex Benziger. G

Sir,
Christians of Europe and America should think the religious freedom in their country.
But the Muslims never given up their faith, tenets and principles.Therefore the Muslims are growing 6 fold as against the Christianity in the whole world.

Mary Kay

Bill Bannon, citing a specific source would be more helpful than "Vatican II in a brief passage." I have to admit that I didn't read your post because of not knowing where it came from.

Steve Cavanaugh

Jason asked "How is this a uniquely Muslim problem? If a Catholic wanted to become a Muslim in Medievel Christendom, would he be allowed to?"

No, a person would probably not have been allowed to become Muslim without accepting exile. But Mediaeval Christendom was under pretty constant attack from Islamic forces from the mid-7th century to the mid-17th century. Keep in mind that North Africa, Egypt, Palestine, Syria and what we now call Turkey, as well as Albania, were all Christian countries that were conquered by Islamic forces. Why would any sane Christian ruler allow a subject to convert to the worldview of a current enemy and keep all his property and privileges?

The situation today is not the same; Christendom is no more, and the Western countries that did rule over many Muslim nations have given up that rule. And even when England, Spain and France ruled large portions of the Muslim world, they did not force conversions to Christianity.

Damascus Boy

Centuries ago the Muslim world was generally more tolerant than the Christian world. Christians have a lot of bad things in our history, which JP2 asked forgiveness for. The Muslim world expanded to included Spain, Jerusalem, Damascus, North Africa, Constantinople etc. by the sword. I don't see any senior Muslim clerics imitating JP2.

Over the last few centuries the Christian world has improved on civil religious tolerance. Most of the Muslim world has not moved forward - the question is can it?

Christians can always denounce the many bad things done by the 'sons of the church' as being contrary to the example of our Founder, can Muslims?

Because Christians did not have political power for over three centuries (similar things apply to most religions) we have a theoretical formative precedent for Church State separation, even if it was abused at times. Muslims are only now starting to live as one religious minority amongst others in a multi-cultural state. But their legal precedents only address how much freedom non-Muslims second-class citizens are permitted in an Islamic state. Most senior Muslim clerics live in dictatorships.

A good first step would be for Muslim intellectuals in democracies to embrace the best values of democracy and denounce the abuses of religious freedom such as the one Jimmy has identified.

Mary Kay
In the Council there is one sentence in Lumen Gentium II-16 and two paragraphs in Nostra Aetate in section 3 (Nostra Aetate itself is only 5 pages long). If you have any copy of the Council, it will only give two or three page numbers in the index. Your total reading will take less than one minute. Neither gives a hint of the problems we see today with killing innocent civilians or the drug traffiking rationalizations that make the Afghan drug trade possible or of the US's 26% of Muslim young people agreeing with suicide bombing...not a hint. Nostra Aetate says "they highly esteem an upright life"...the Council of Florence referred to the "demonic cult of Mohammet". Both are Councils....both are true of varying and different muslims.

bill bannon

Mary Kay....that was me just above.

Cienwen

My fiancée is from Malaysia (he’s a Chinese Catholic) and I spent 5 weeks there two years ago. I have to say that it stinks to be a Muslim in Malaysia. They actually have people running around trying to catch young Muslims holding hands so they can be punished. But the Chinese and Indians can do what they want with no harassment. Believe it or not the Malaysian government protects non-Muslims far better than Muslims. Last year, some Muslim radical got a bunch of people wound up about a secret conversion ceremony being held at a Catholic church. When the group of Muslim men went to the church to cause a ruckus, it turned out to be a First Communion for a bunch of Catholic kids. The Malaysian government was very upset and the person who started the rumor was sent to prison. The government there is very concerned with appearances!

On the other hand, I have a relative in Malaysia who is Muslim but wanted to marry a Catholic. They had to marry secretly in another country or their kids would be forced to be Muslim and if anything happened to him, his Catholic spouse could not inherit their joint property.

I would not want to be a Muslim in Malaysia. I was very content to be Catholic in Malaysia.

As for the previous comment about Islam growing leaps and bounds, that is nothing to be proud of. Statistics show it has little to do with an overwhelming love of “Allah” but rather the consequence of certain Muslim countries plagued by poverty and a lack of education. Check out these stats from Time Magazine.

{
1.84%
Growth rate from 2000 to 2005 of Islam, the world's fastest- rising religion, which counts 1.3 billion adherents
19.65
Births per 1,000 people in Indonesia, which has the world's largest Muslim population, a rate 39% higher than that of the U.S.
}

Mary Kay

Bill B, thanks for the sources. I'll go back and re-read later. I agree with you that they were thinking of regular Muslims, not followers of Ahmmadjihad who thinks blowing up the world will hasten the coming of some prophet.

Dr. Eric

Damascus Boy,

Haven't you heard of Dhimmitude?

Anthony

Over the last few centuries the Christian world has improved on civil religious tolerance. Most of the Muslim world has not moved forward - the question is can it?

Sure it can. I have a suspicion that post-WWI colonialism retarded the progress of the Muslim world and that we would have been better off if the Middle East had seen independent nations arise rather than having places like Syria and Palestine being placed under League of Nations mandates.

That being said, the Muslim world has an uphill climb because ideologically rigid systems, such as those based on immutable interpretation of scripture or the old Soviet Union, which went so far as to make Lysenkoist claims on the belief that ideology could dictate science.

But for now, the Muslim world is behind the leading edge of democracy. That's not unusually. Latin America with its tradition of military strongmen, some supported by the US, also falls short of the western standard of secular liberal democracy.

Mary

How long, LORD? Will you utterly forget me? How long will you hide your face from me?
How long must I carry sorrow in my soul, grief in my heart day after day? How long will my enemy triumph over me?
Look upon me, answer me, LORD, my God! Give light to my eyes lest I sleep in death,
Lest my enemy say, "I have prevailed," lest my foes rejoice at my downfall.
I trust in your faithfulness. Grant my heart joy in your help, That I may sing of the LORD, "How good our God has been to me!"

deacon john m. bresnahan

Damascus Boy--I just finished reading a history of Christian monasticism in the Middle East after the Moslem conquests of the area by fire, sword and bloodletting. And Christian monasteries had to be constructed as forts to protect the monks from the butchery and savagery frequently inflicted upon them by Moslem atrtackers. Egyptian monasteries in particular were frequently obliterated by Moslem infidel haters.
This modern lie and fraud about how Moslems were really quite benevolent to those they conquered is a historical crock--unless you like being second-class citizens (Dhimmis) and didn't mind being an infidel whose life could be exterminated at any time courtesy of the Koran.

Marcel LeJeune

Unfortunately most modern Muslim scholars do not interpret the Koran with the same kind of hermeneutics that Christian scholars do. This means that most muslims are "trapped" into a very narrow kind of interpretation.

Rick

Ah! the good old religion of peace strikes again!

"I would not want to be a Muslim in Malaysia. I was very content to be Catholic in Malaysia."

Lina Joy is a catholic in Malaysia who is not contented.

c matt

Maybe being a catholic in Malaysia is tolerable. But being a convert from Islam can be quite deadly.

Jarnor23

One side note: having a higher birth rate than the U.S. isn't something to be particularly ashamed of. Frankly, western countries are contracepting and aborting their way into history.

Dilly

Her boyfriend's ID card apparently must say he's Christian. Perhaps his has always said that. Maybe you just can't change your ID card over there.

Mary

No, this stems from giving religious courts authority over Moslems and only Moslems.

Rutherford

No, she's a Christian and the religious Muslim courts have authority over her too at her request.

Tim J.

Personal conversion - away from Islam - may be suppressed so aggressively because the whole concept poses a real threat to Islam. It smacks a bit of paranoia... like a jealous husband that keeps his wife locked in the house all day (of course, under Sharia law, that is common) because he is so insecure in his own manhood.

If the people are allowed to make up their own minds and accept or reject Islam on it's own merits, I don't see that being a good thing for their membership rolls.

Damascus Boy

I re-read the Regensburg
lecture on faith, reason and violence, and was once again impressed by the profound insights of B16.

"God is not pleased by blood-and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. ... Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats. ... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death."

I cannot understand the double-standards of some well-meaning 'progressives' (even within the Church) who elevate political correctness over our common values, sneering at 'papal rule' (eg on abortion) yet eagerly submitting to Dhimmitude (eg on democracy, human rights, women's rights, free speech etc.).

Socrates or Muhammad is an excellent and accessible commentary on Regensburg by Lee Harris, especially page 2. I quote Harris below:

If modern reason cannot take the side of the emperor in this debate, if it cannot see that his religion is more reasonable than the religion of those who preach and practice jihad, if it cannot condemn as unreasonable a religion that forces atheists and unbelievers to make a choice between their intellectual integrity and death, then modern reason may be modern, but it has ceased to be reason.
. . .
[B16] is urging us to examine the cultural and historical conditions that made the emergence of modern reason possible. Modern reason required a preexisting community of reasonable men before it could emerge in the West; modern reason, therefore, could not create the cultural and historical condition that made its own existence possible. But in this case, modern reason must ask itself: What created the communities of reasonable men that eventually made modern reason possible? ... the Christian concept of God as a rational Creator.
. . .
How can a god who commands conversion by the sword be the same god as the emperor's god-a god who wished to gain converts only through the use of words and reason? If Allah is happy to accept converts who are trembling in fear for their lives, with a sword hovering over their necks, then he may well be a god worth fearing, but not a god worth revering. He may represent an imaginary construction of god suitable to slaves, but he will not be an image of god worthy of being worshiped by a Socrates-or by any reasonable man.

Mary

To quote the Moslem opinion on the matter:

"If Islam were to grant permission for Muslims to change religion at will, it would imply it has no dignity, no self-esteem. And people may then question its completeness, truthfulness and perfection."

more here

Dwight

That's just one of many Muslim opinions on the matter, just as the Koranic verse (2:256), "There is no compulsion in religion" (in Arabic: la ikrah fi'd-din) has many meanings among Muslims. For example, a former chief justice of Pakistan, S.A. Rahman, argues that the Koranic phrase contains "a charter of freedom of conscience unparalleled in the religious annals of mankind." Interpretations vary among Muslim followers.

Brian

That's just one of many Muslim opinions on the matter

Sigh, if only every sect of every religion had their own magisterium. Just think how easy it would be to whittle away the would-be contenders whose beliefs just don't add up logically. It's no fun when every gets to claim, "well, that's not my interpretation."

Brian

Actually...

Sigh, if only Cathlolics realized that their Church has a Magisterium. Then no one would say: I'm Catholic, but...

Instead it would be: I used to think X, but then I did research to find out why I disagreed with the Church and once I understood the Church's teachings it all made sense to me.

Or it would be: I used to be Catholic, but I think X so I joined Y denomination.

A Simple Sinner

Jason asked "How is this a uniquely Muslim problem? If a Catholic wanted to become a Muslim in Medievel Christendom, would he be allowed to?"

Not to be flippant, but I would be no less horrified to learn of Muslims in Malaysia practicing blood-letting in 2007 just because Europeans did it many odd centuries ago.

Do past sins of the Catholic individuals or cultures leave us unable to to have an informed opinion or disagreement with others because, well, "who are we to say, we did bad things too?"

Jason

A Simple Sinner,

No, I don't think we can't speak out against it, but I think sometimes we treat Islam as if it were the epitome of evil. Sometimes we throw the violence in the Islamic world in the face of Islam, and make sarcastic comments about how "the religion of peace" is at it again. My point was just that history and religion is not always black and white. We don't like it when people throw the past in our face without context, and we should extend that same courtesy. In the context of this story, my point was that the Islamic world can change. We know firsthand because we have dealt with similar issues, such as Christian violence against Jews in the past.

MissJean

Jason, we're not really throwing Islam's past in its face. We're talking about the present. And we KNOW that the Islamic world can change... when they embrace Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

Esau

Sigh, if only every sect of every religion had their own magisterium. Just think how easy it would be to whittle away the would-be contenders whose beliefs just don't add up logically. It's no fun when every gets to claim, "well, that's not my interpretation."

Posted by: Brian | Jun 9, 2007 4:15:16 PM


Brian,

I think you fail to understand that there is no such centrality in Islam.

It follows more of a 'Sola Scriptura' mindset where everybody determines the meaning of a text according to their own individual interpretation as they see fit; there is no such central authority.

That is why when the leader of one group's individual interpretation says to another that theirs is the wrong one, that the way they're interpreting the text is unjustified and not in accordance with the genuine meaning of the verse, that the violence they're acting out in the name of that verse is utterly wrong, that person is not taken seriously by the individual/member of the other group.

Rebecca

Sigh, we see similar "not taken seriously" even with a magisterium.

Esau

Sigh, we see similar "not taken seriously" even with a magisterium.


Rebecca,

That is not to say that a central authority like the Pope does not actually wield any influence whatsoever.

In fact, there are various Catholics -- even Protestants and non-Christians -- who actually care about what the Pope, the central figure of the Church, has to say.

Tom N

We should either send in the SEALs to get them out or have Ross Perot put together an elite team to get them out.

John (not the trad)

Or send Crusaders to protect them.

Ariel

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Daniel

I am a Muslim. So I feel obliged to defend my religion.

The word 'Islam' is an Arabic world that comes from three characters 'sin', 'lam', 'mim'. Put together, it is read as 'silm' or 'salama'. The root word itself means peace or surrender. Thus, one of the meanings of the word 'Islam' is 'to surrender one's will to God'.

When a person embraces Islam, he/she surrenders him/herself to God. That means, there should be complete submission of oneself to God's law and will. Or in other words, one must have complete faith in God.

Now, when one has completely surrendered himself to God, then that means all his 'rights' are dictated by Him. This means that if God says that He doesn't want you to go astray, then you shouldn't. It is His wishes that should be followed and not yours. Who are we anyway in the face of God?

If you understand the concept of submitting oneself to God, then you will not find this explanation shocking. But, if you look at this objectively, it makes perfect sense. If we are His creation, who are we to go against Him? Just imagine, God created EVERYTHING, from what we know in this earth to what we do not know in outer space and beyond. What's the point of human beings being so arrogant? We are not even a tiny speck of dust in this huge universe. So if He says that we should pray five times a day, we do it. If he says we fast for a month, we do it. Because we COMPLETELY submit ourselves to Him. And THAT is why a Muslim is not allowed to leave the religion.

HOWEVER, having said that, apostasy is real and unavoidable. The death penalty for apostasy is still debatable in Islam. The authority that most Muslims use regarding the death penalty was during the times of war in the history of Islam (before he/she is sentenced to death, there should be some counseling). Other than that, there is no clear authority saying that an apostate should be killed.

I'm sad to say this, but the truth is, most Muslims are not well-versed in their own religion. That's why there are problems in countries such as Malaysia. And of course, you got politicians who twist Islam for their own personal advantage.

Islam, as far as I'm concerned, is perfect. You may disagree with me, but that's fine. I just hope that anyone who reads this will try to study Islam in great detail (and try to think objectively and consider my views with a clear mind) before attempting to bash it.

Foxfier

Daniel-- the woman in question never chose Islam.

Therefore, she couldn't have submitted herself-- as submission is a willful choice.

Therefore, your defense is not fitting to the situation.

Also rather amusing, since Catholicism also requires submission of one's will to God's will. "Not my will, but Thine" and all. The difference being that Catholics see it as an ongoing act, a struggle against your own will vs God's.

Honestly, I can't think much of a faith that requires a death threat to get folks to fall in line.
"A man convinced against his will/is of his own opinion still." If something wouldn't float in *civil* law, how could it be expected to work with The Lord?

If you see a mention of a woman who is not *allowed* to choose what she will submit to as "bashing" your faith, then I pity you. The world must be a very dangerous, vicious place to you.

Tim J.

"And THAT is why a Muslim is not allowed to leave the religion."

But, what if they become convinced that Islam is not true?

"I'm sad to say this, but the truth is, most Muslims are not well-versed in their own religion."

Don't feel bad. Most Catholics aren't, either.

"Islam, as far as I'm concerned, is perfect."

Well, naturally enough, that is how I feel about the Christian faith, at least when the faith is lived out in the lives of Christian people. If it is not lived, it is useless.

"I just hope that anyone who reads this will try to study Islam in great detail (and try to think objectively and consider my views with a clear mind)"

And I hope you will do the same for the Catholic faith, if your religion will allow it.

I am no scholar, but I have read the Q'uran and studied Islam as part of a secular college course on world religions. I can't say I have any deep understanding of Islam, but I have at least made some sincere, if small, effort.

Daniel

For Foxfier,

"The difference being that Catholics see it as an ongoing act, a struggle against your own will vs God's."

The situation is exactly the same in Islam.

Let me clarify a few things:

1. I never said that Islam was this woman's choice. But she was born to Muslim parents (and I don't have enough knowledge of her parents or her personal background to comment further on that). I was merely explaining the reasons why it is prohibited to renounce Islam.

2. I did mention clearly that the "death threat" is still debatable. That's from the Islamic point of view.

3. As regards the "bashing", I am referring to posts such as this one:

"like a jealous husband that keeps his wife locked in the house all day (of course, under Sharia law, that is common) because he is so insecure in his own manhood."

That is a completely false statement. Just because it happens, and just because some people do it, it doesn't mean that it is what Islam teaches. For example, the Taliban version of Islam is NOT the true Islam.

For Tim J,

"But, what if they become convinced that Islam is not true?"

This is one of the conundrums of today's Muslim scholars. But personally, I believe that sincerity is very important in a religion. If there's no sincerity, there's no faith. Thus, I think that people who want to leave Islam should be allowed to do so.

When I mentioned that Muslims are not well-versed in their own religion, the point that I was trying to make is that, it is one of the reasons why there are different interpretations of Islam that lead to it having a bad image these days (generally speaking).

"And I hope you will do the same for the Catholic faith, if your religion will allow it."

It is very much allowed in Islam. In fact, I actually own a Bible (as it doesn't change my beliefs). And for the record, I was actually a Roman Catholic and educated in a school run by priests :-)

It is my hope that Muslims in the world will try to learn more about Islam, and that the true Islam will be portrayed correctly. I'm not saying I'm more learned than others, but I'm learning and it's a continuous process.

I just wish to make a plea to all readers not to jump to conclusions regarding other people's faith. I have had interfaith conversations with my friends who are 7th-day Adventists and Roman Catholics and Protestants, and not surprisingly, we are actually more similar than we are different.

Thank you Tim.

Ikhwanul Muslim

Islam is not just a religion..

Its more than that...

It's a big family...need to love, care, tolerate to each other...

'Muslim are brothers'- Holy Quran- .....

May you give your sister to other family???

Surely not...

Azlina Jailani is our sister..

'He/she is not a true Muslim until he/she love and care his/her brothers/sisters like he/she care to himself/herself...'-Muhammad P.B.U.H

David B.

Lina Joy is a Christian, and has rights. You may believe you can't 'give your sister to other family,' but what if your sister leaves your family for another? Lina wished to be part of God's True Church. Will she be punished for it? Your beliefs are yours to hold, but you cannot force them on another.

Buy acyclovir

Lets all forget about religion an believe in humanity love can change the world

David B.

The second most annoying thing about spam is that it cannot use proper grammar.

bill912

"Lets(sic) all forget about religion..."

Yeah, just because Jesus established a Church is no reason to belong to it. After all, it's not like He's God or something!

Wait a minute...

JoAnna

Lets all forget about religion an believe in humanity love can change the world

Ah, the Gospel according to John... Lennon.

John Damascus

And the persecution continues ...
Hanged for being a Christian in Iran

maybe we should ask our Muslim friends their personal views on this case, and applaud those who support human rights.

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