Sorry, Grunerites

THAT'S ALL THERE IS, AND THERE AIN'T NO MO'.

EXCERPTS:

The strange thing, Cardinal Bertone said in the new book, is that Pope John Paul decided to publish the secret precisely to put an end to the wild speculation that had surrounded it.

Good point!

"The most absurd theses" were being spread, mainly presuming that the secret predicted catastrophic world events or widespread heresy at the top levels of the church, Cardinal Bertone said.

"Clearing up the question was a pastoral concern," he said.

MORE HERE.

EXCERPT:

"There is no fourth secret," he declared yesterday. "Everything has been published and correctly interpreted."

AND HERE'S THE POPE'S FOREWORD TO THE BOOK.

And let it not be forgotten that when the Third Secret was revealed, His Awesomeness Cardinal Ratzinger wrote:

Thus we come finally to the third part of the “secret” of Fatima which for the first time is being published in its entirety.

SOURCE: THE MESSAGE OF FATIMA.

Either B16 is a liar or not.

I know where my money is.

Comments

[bill912]

Some people will still insist that a duplicate key to the ward room ice box is being kept hidden in the Vatican.

[Tim J.]

Hopefully, the Vatican announcement will encourage some Catholics who have found themselves distracted by this to put the thing aside and move on to more constructive spiritual pursuits.

Unfortunately, for the hard-core conspiracy theorist, such a pronouncement will be meaningless. They already KNOW the truth, and are only in search of arguments to support it.

Using geometric logic, of course, bill. ;-)

[Leo]

The secret was entrusted to the pope. John Paul II would have know the full secret and whether the Vatican disclosure was incomplete or misleading. It is a matter in which he had taken a special interest, even before he was shot. He attributed his survival to the intercession of Our Lady of Fatima. JP2 was also a proficient linguist and would have been able to master the Portuguese dialect it was written in. He had also met Sr Lucia.

JP2 would have known if there was a cover-up.

After the Fatima disclosure, JP2 spoke many times in public, including twice at Fatima. He had ample opportunity to expose any Fatima cover up or even sack the cardinal(s) responsible.
It is inconceivable that even if someone had attempted to place JP2 under duress or threat that he would be coerced by this – I imagine that the opposite would have occurred.

Sr Lucia knew the secrets better than anyone else. She too has appeared in public since the ‘alleged’ disclosure and had many opportunities to expose any cover up. The media, hungry for conspiracy and eager to bash the Vatican, would have protected and publicised ‘the scoop of the century’ had she wanted to do this. She has confirmed full disclosure.

Anyone who suggests that all the Fatima secrets have not been fully disclosed is calling both Pope John Paul II and Sr Lucia liars.

[Leo]

The secret was entrusted to the pope. John Paul II would have know the full secret and whether the Vatican disclosure was incomplete or misleading. It is a matter in which he had taken a special interest, even before he was shot. He attributed his survival to the intercession of Our Lady of Fatima. JP2 was also a proficient linguist and would have been able to master the Portuguese dialect it was written in. He had also met Sr Lucia.

JP2 would have known if there was a cover-up.

After the Fatima disclosure, JP2 spoke many times in public, including twice at Fatima. He had ample opportunity to expose any Fatima cover up or even sack the cardinal(s) responsible.
It is inconceivable that even if someone had attempted to place JP2 under duress or threat that he would be coerced by this – I imagine that the opposite would have occurred.

Sr Lucia knew the secrets better than anyone else. She too has appeared in public since the ‘alleged’ disclosure and had many opportunities to expose any cover up. The media, hungry for conspiracy and eager to bash the Vatican, would have protected and publicised ‘the scoop of the century’ had she wanted to do this. She has confirmed full disclosure.

Anyone who suggests that all the Fatima secrets have not been fully disclosed is calling both Pope John Paul II and Sr Lucia liars.

[Brian]

Unfortunately, for the hard-core conspiracy theorist, such a pronouncement will be meaningless.

Unfortunately, for the hard-core conspiracy theorist, the very fact that the Vatican is making such an announcement "proves" that they've got something to hide. Don't you know that "Move along, there's nothing to see here" really means there's something to see here.

[Inigo Montoya]

With Tim J. "using geometric logic" and Leo using the word "inconceivable"... I think the true conspiracy is that J.A. commentors are all "Pricess Bride" fanatics.

Prepare to die!

[Tim J.]

Actually, the "geometric logic" thing was a riff on bill912's Caine Mutiny reference.

But, OF COURSE, The Princess Bride also pops up often, as is only fitting. I suppose if I WERE to riff on TPB in this instance I might say something like "Papal Fatima Conspiracies? I don't think they exist".

[The Big Seester]

You know, this being released at the same time as the new study which says that it's possible that there wasn't a Lone Gunman in Dallas is pretty suspicious!

Grin.

Awesome Caine Mutiny reference, BTW! One of my all time fave movies - Bogie rocks!

TBS

[Brian]

BTW I didn't know what a Grunerite was, so I looked it up: Grunerite is a member of the amphibole family. It occurs in relatively iron-rich rocks that have been subjected to moderate grades of metamorphism.

Amphibole! Them's fightin' words! :-)

I also don't know what Caine Mutiny is and have never seen The Princess Bride - wasn't Andre the Giant in it or something? Older references lost on younger viewers - that's from the Johnny Carson show right? I think I've seen that on reruns.

[Shane]

Jimmy, you summed it up perfectly. It all comes down to one thing: was John-Paull II (and now B16) a liar, or wasn't he?

[Cajun Nick]

inconceivable

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[Leo]

Sorry for the double posting - my security programs must have been conspiring against me.

Perhaps 'unimaginable' or 'unfeasible' would have been better than 'inconceivable'.

As I explained above, any conspiracy would cast doubt on Sr Lucia's integrity. Which would then cast doubt on the veracity of any messages she 'revealed' - including any third or fourth secret.

A self-contradiction for the conspiracy theorists.

[bill912]

Unless, of course, the real Sister Lucia was done away with many years ago, and replaced by a brainwashed double.

[Leo]

Thanks Bill912
that's given me a great idea for a book ...

[tim]

With all due respect to everyone, Jimmy included, who wish to think the best, it is simply undeniable that the entire words of Our Lady have not been revealed. If you think the choice is "either the Pope is a liar or he is not", then you are not thinking it through. A person can tell the truth, technically, without stating everything that they mean.

I recommend checking out John Vennari's article on the latest dispute between Cdl. Bertone and Antonio Socci. Google those names and see what you come up with.

No serious person can claim that Mary's Immaculate Heart has triumphed as of yet. Russia is not converted. The church is in a mess. I do not call the Pope a liar. I think he is in a tough spot, and is trying to balance a lot of problems on one plate.

[bill912]

Which words of Our Lady have not been revealed? And how do you know?

[Jordan Potter]

It's a sad individual who would put their faith in Nick Gruner (as a suspended, disobedient priest, he may not be called "Father") rather than in Sister Lucia. "It is simply undeniable that the entire words of Our Lady have not been revealed," Tim assures us, without the slightest shred of evidence, and in the face of Sister Lucia's own denials.

From where I'm sitting, it seems to me that such persons really don't care about the true message of Fatima. At heart, they're really Fatimists or Grunerites, not Catholics. (Yes, ontologically, sacramentally, they're Catholics -- but their faith in an imaginary, nonexistent version of the Fatima message has warped their faith.)

[Alex Benziger.G]

Sir,
In Vatican many more freemasions are there. They must be identified and should be removed from the Vatican. All the declarations of the Council of Trend should be restored in all forms. Cardinal Ivan Diaz is a heretic like that so many bishops and priests are there in India. They sold so many Church properties and syphoned the money into their own pocket. Vatican has deaf ears.

[Inocencio]

tim,

Who's word would you accept that the entire words of Our Lady has been revealed if not Sr. Lucia, Pope John Paul II and now Pope Benedict XVI?

Why would a catholic not accept their word on the matter?

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

[bill912]

"In Vatican many more freemasions(sic) are there."

Please name one, and tell us how you know.

[tim]

Well, Bill, I "know" as much as you do, probably. Which is, what we have been told by others. Then, we analyze this information and decide if it makes sense. Then, we draw conclusions, tentative or otherwise. Many people who have read the secret, including John Paul, Benedict, Cardinals and prelates have made comments concerning its contents that are entirely inconsistent with the position that Mary's words about the vision released (40 years after her request)in 2000.

In another vision to these children, the one of souls falling into hell, Mary explained to them that they were seeing hell, where poor sinners go. Yet, we are to believe that in the highly esoteric vision of the bishop in white, she offered no explanation of what the children saw.

Perhaps you can tell me, has Mary's Immaculate Heart triumphed, and a period of peace been given to the world?

[Inocencio]

Alex Benziger G.,

Please explain why any of us should listen to you? Are you the Rock the Church is built upon? Do you hold the Keys to the Kingdom? Are you personally infallible because you say so?

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

[bill912]

So, which words of Our Lady have not been revealed and how do you know? Or are you just going to ignore my question again?

[StubbleSpark]

I love the articles in many Traditionalist newspapers and magazines, but these conspiracy theories call the whole enterprise into question. It degrades the publication from legitimate to tabloid pabulum.

Not to mention that it demonstrates a disturbingly flippant lack of faith in the One True Church.

I am of the opinion that conspiracy theories are pointless. * Believe whatever you want.
* Discount all evidence to the contrary as part of the coverup.
* Never have to critically examine the veracity of your ideas.

This is Satan's version of faith -- an easy faith. A faith in pride in the specialness of the believer. But most importantly an impotent faith.

Ultimately it never matters if the conspiracy is real or not. It does not save you. Without substantial proof, you will never convince enough people for it to matter anyway. In the end, you are wasting your time.

And if you spend enough time foaming at the mouth about conspiracy theories, you start to really resent what a waste of life they are. Who wants to look back on their life and realize they wrote about and investigated absolutely nothing?

Not to mention the fact that I am personally convinced that once the conspiracy theorist comes into his own and is widely accepted, he will quickly drop that conspiracy and go on to something else. Because the whole allure of conspiracies is a gnostic-like sense of entitlement to secret knowledge.

[tim]

Jordan, thanks for highly informed opinion about whether or not I am really a Catholic. Wow, that was helpful.

And,I am certainly not a fatima fanatic, nor a "grunerite". I am just a person with a brain, and, according to you, a sad individual masquerading as a Cathoic.

Innocencio,

Did YOU hear Sister Lucia say that all had been revealed?

And if the Pope says that global warming exists, do I have to believe it just because he says it, when it has nothing to do with the deposit of faith.

[Jarnor23]

Brian: The Princess Bride did indeed have Andre the Giant in it. I highly recommend standing up from your chair right now, walking to the nearest video rental place and renting a copy tonight. I don't think I've personally met anyone who disliked this gem. And even if you do, you'll still understand what the heck all these quotes are people constantly use from the movie. :)

[bill912]

Brian, while you're there, rent "The Caine Mutiny" and a few other Bogart films, too.

[tim]

stubblespark,

It never ceases to amaze me the incredible level of hubris of the neoconservative Catholic who dismisses any discussion of faith matters by belittling their opponent. The Catholic faith is not the contents of a press release from the curia.

[tim]

Bill, fair enough.

The words of Our Lady at Fatima, never before released, are as follows:

"In the year 2007, when my son Benedict XVI is on the throne, some poster on Jimmy Akin's blog will call himself Bill912, and seek to irritate the faithful. Do not waste time with him, but instead pray for his soul."

Sr. Lucia sent me that.

[Inocencio]

tim,

No, she did not speak to me. I read her words. I would recommend her example of obedience to everyone.

Now please answer my simple question. Who's word would you accept?
I look forward to your answer.

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

[Dr. Eric]

Does anyone consider that the conversion of Russia might have actually been the prediction of the Fall of Communism there?

The Icon of Our Lady of Kazan was returned to Patriarch Alexei.

The Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church outside of Russia have ended their schism. Yet there is no resolution to the SSPX problem.

Orthodox Christianity is a required course in all public and Christian schools. Whereas Americans lose ground everyday to the atheistic secular agenda.

President Putin attends the Divine Services regularly and receives the Holy Mysteries (Sacraments.)

Gay Pride parades are preempted by the Russian Orthodox Church, whereas they persist in Rome, San Francisco, Jerusalem, New York, etc...

I'd say that Russia has converted way more than the West!

If only the 1000 year old Schism would end! Ut Unim Sint!

[tim]

Inocencio, I appreciate the logic of your position, and the respectful tenor of comments. I appreciate it. But, I think that the "who would you rather believe" argument is illusory here. Why? Because, first and foremost, I believe in Christ's Church, that declared that the Fatima apparition was worthy of belief. Then, as a result, I trust foremost the words of Mary, the Mother of God. She said that if the Holy Father consecrated Russia to her Immaculate Heart, Russia would be converted and a period of peace would be granted to the world. As the consecration has not been done, so neither has Russia been converted.

Mary told Sr. Lucia that the third secret should be published in 1960, or at Sr. Lucia's death, whichever came first. It was not. Why not? A Pope, John XXIII, decided not to. According to all of the "the Pope said it it must be true and best" crowd that populates the readership here, his decision to ignore Mary's request was good.

Same logic applies here. Whom do I believe? Mary. The Church. The Pope is not "personally" infallible, as someone stated above. He is infallible when he defines a matter of faith or morals, which means he cannot err as a matter of faith or morals. He can be factually incorrect.

[tim]

Dr. Eric, if indeed the situation in Russia today represents Russia's "conversion", then Fatima is meaningless.

[Dr. Eric]

Fatima is a private revelation meant for the seers primarily.

And the message is that Russia will be converted. It never says to what. All the Russians could convert to Zoroastrianism and it would still mean that Russia has converted.

[Paul]

Everything has been published and correctly interpreted... a "man dressed in white" shot down amid the rubble of a ruined city as a prophetic vision of the 1981 attempt to assassinate Pope John Paul.

The third secret is about a man "KILLED by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him." Pope John Paul wasn't killed, nor by soldiers and there were no arrows.

[Esau]

Dr. Eric, if indeed the situation in Russia today represents Russia's "conversion", then Fatima is meaningless.

How can Fatima, just because how things are today in Russia, be rendered meaningless?

That's like saying if indeed the situation in Rome during the days after it had become a Christian Empire represents Rome's "conversion" (as there were several atrocities being committed then even after it had actually been converted), then it becoming Christian was meaningless.

[Brian]

I'm confused, I thought the issue is whether or not all the secrets have been fully revealed not whether or not they've been fulfilled?

Does the fulfillment (or lack of fulfillment) of the prophecy about Russia's conversion have any bearing on whether or not the third secret has been honestly revealed?

[Dr. Eric]

So, there will be a dragon with 7 heads and seven horns to rule over the nations at the end of time? Will it be a Scandanavian dragon, a Chinese dragon, an Arabian dragon, etc...

Will it have wings and breathe fire, or live in the water?

[Dr. Eric]

My comment was for Paul.

[Paul]

Does the fulfillment (or lack of fulfillment) of the prophecy about Russia's conversion have any bearing on whether or not the third secret has been honestly revealed?

The article claims "Everything has been published and correctly interpreted." If one considers the intepretation as part of the revelation, then even if it's been published, the issue remains as to whether it's been honestly revealed.

[Paul]

So, there will be a dragon with 7 heads and seven horns to rule over the nations at the end of time? Will it be a Scandanavian dragon, a Chinese dragon, an Arabian dragon, etc...

Does the Church claim to correctly understand what all that means?

[Inocencio]

tim,

Yes, Fatima is worty of belief but not part of the deposit of faith. No private revelation is part of the deposit of faith.

Sr. Lucia wrote in her book
that the interpetation of the Message pertains to the God's Church.

If "legitimate authority" has said the message is revealed in its entirety who are we to say that it is not?

If you believe that Christ's Church has the authority to declare the message worthy of belief why wouldn't you believe the same authority when it says that the entire message has been revealed?

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

[tim]

Dr. Eric, Zoroastrianism? Please.

Paul makes an interesting point. Not only, do we have to believe that everything has been revealed, but also that it has been correctly interpreted by those people who have said they revealed everything. Does no one see how unsupportable this is??

[Cajun Nick]

Brian:

Older references lost on younger viewers

Wow! You are really making me seem old today. :)

Seriously - please do rent The Princess Bride. It's my #1 favorite movie in the Romantic/Comedy/Sarcastic/Fable category.

Plus Billy Crystal is GREAT in it.

[Dr. Eric]

tim,

No one is required to believe in ANY apparition.

The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is not founded on the supposed apparitions at Fatima.

(Even though, I believe them to be true, they do not add to or subtract from my Faith.)

There is an anecdote from St. Louis. After Mass, a page came to him and said "Your Majesty, Our Lord Jesus is appearing at ____" (I'm not sure of the place)

To which, the Holy King replied, "I have already received Him in the Holy Eucharist, what more do I need."

[tim]

Inocencio,

You said, "If "legitimate authority" has said the message is revealed in its entirety who are we to say that it is not?

If you believe that Christ's Church has the authority to declare the message worthy of belief why wouldn't you believe the same authority when it says that the entire message has been revealed?"

This perfectly frames the point--the authority that stated the apparition was worthy of belief ISN'T THE SAME AUTHORITY that that says the whole secret is revealed. That's the point. The declaration on the worthiness of Fatima was an official pronouncement of the Church and the comments about whether the secret is fully revealed is private statement. The cardinal is telling you what he wants you to believe about the secret. Great, that is one factor to take into account. He is not, and cannot compel me to believe his interpretation of the prophecy.

Brian, whether or not the prophecy has been fulfilled bears upon the veracity of the prophecy and the accuracy and completeness of the published account of Mary's words.

[Paul]

To which, the Holy King replied, "I have already received Him in the Holy Eucharist, what more do I need."

Until next Sunday.

[Dr. Eric]

Gee, if the secret has not been revealed, are you going to stop being a Catholic?

[tim]

Dr. Eric, Nor is anyone required to believe in ANY cardinal's private opinion about a private revelation.

[Dr. Eric]

Paul,

Do you get it now?

Stop chasing apparitions people!

If you have received Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist, you need nothing else.

Save your soul first, then work on everyone else's.

[Dr. Eric]

I really don't get what the big deal is.

Does anyone fight about the Secret of Our Lady of LaVang?

[tim]

Dr. Eric, according to Jordan, I am not a Catholic.

But, to answer your question, it is because I believe the secret has not been revealed, in conjunction with the fact that I am Catholic, that I care enough to debate it here. Mary is the most powerful intercessor with Christ we have. If we ignore her advice, it is to our peril.

[Esau]

Brian, whether or not the prophecy has been fulfilled bears upon the veracity of the prophecy and the accuracy and completeness of the published account of Mary's words

Tim:

That's just it; what would you consider a 'converted' Russia?

Some sort of ideal paradise where everybody is Christian and lives to Christian ideals to the letter?

No such thing on this world!

I would even dare say you don't even fulfill the latter.

[Tim J.]

Prove that Bigfoot DOESN'T exist!

[Tim J.]

If the Fourth Secret is, well, a secret... how would anyone know it exists? How would we know there is not a Fifth Secret?... and a Sixth?

[Dr. Eric]

Does Our Lady bring a new gospel?

What do you care if Russia converts or not?

Have you reached the heights of divinization yet?

Work on that first, then worry about Russia. From what I know, Russia can take care of herself.

[tim]

Eric, your comments to Jordan are not an accurate statement of the Catholic faith. Receiving Jesus Christ in the Eucharist is not enough. That's Kurt Warner-land.

Read Matthew 25:31-46.

Esau, I would consider a converted Russia to be a country where the large majority of people were faithful Catholics and the government was a just one that acknowledged the faith.

You think that is impossible with Mary's intervention? Hey, did you know that Someone actually rose from the dead on His own power?! Wild!

[tim]

Dr. Eric,

You either are not serious or cannot be taken seriously.

Russia can take care of itself. Great point.

[tim]

Sorry about that last one, Eric, that was a little uncharitable.

[Esau]

Esau, I would consider a converted Russia to be a country where the large majority of people were faithful Catholics and the government was a just one that acknowledged the faith.

Oh, puhleeze!

What 'FAIRY TALE' did you come from?

You are expecting a 'Heaven on Earth' type fantasy!

Not even the Roman Catholic Church consists of people who are faithful Catholics!

[Dr. Eric]

tim,

I already live in Kurt Warner-land, Cardinal Glennon Hospital has a whole wing donated by Mr. Warner.

Every time he comes to the St. Louis area, he brings Christian love with him.

How does this "4th Secret" have anything to do with feeding the hungry or clothing the naked?

[Tim J.]

I agree that the conversion of Russia couldn't mean conversion to anything but the Christian faith... I can't believe the Blessed Mother would play word games.

[Dr. Eric]

tim,

As I have written before, Russia has more characteristics of a Christian Nation than the United States or Italy.

[Tim J.]

Not that this "conversion" would mean COMPLETE conversion of all her institutions, just so that one could reasonably assert that Russia was a free Christian nation, as one could once say of the U.S..

Not a homogenous nation of Christians, but one founded on Christian principles.

[Esau]

I agree that the conversion of Russia couldn't mean conversion to anything but the Christian faith... I can't believe the Blessed Mother would play word games.

Tim J.:

What makes you think it hasn't?

And, by the way, I was not even implying that she plays word games.

The original statement tim made was:

"Dr. Eric, if indeed the situation in Russia today represents Russia's "conversion", then Fatima is meaningless."

I found it quite ridiculous since even after Rome converted to the Christian Faith, its people still lived very sinful and even faithless lives even after it had actually been converted; however, I wouldn't call what brought it to convert to Christianity meaningless.

[Tim J.]

I was responding to the idea that the "conversion" could have meant conversion to Zoroastrianism, or whatever...

I should have pasted the relevant quote at the top of my post.

[Paul]

If you have received Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist, you need nothing else.

Yet they felt a need to publish the "secrets."

[Realist]

As previously noted:

Father Raymond Brown would say (about B16's "new" book"), "Been there, done that" with my 878 page "imprimatured" review entitled "An Introduction to the NEW Testament". Ditto for
Luke Johnson with his, The Real Jesus and NT Wright with his three volume set, The New Testament and the People of God, Jesus and the Victory of God, and The Resurrection and the Son of God.

Or as some would say, "the Bible is true because it says it is".

[Dr. Eric]

TimJ,

I only was pointing out that the apparition said Russia would convert, not that Russia would convert to the Roman Catholic Faith complete with Monday night Novenas, Saturday Rosaries, the St. Vincent De Paul Society, and Sunday night Bingo.

Russia's reconversion back to Orthodoxy can be a legitimate fulfillment of said prophecy. Orthodoxy has a valid Episcopate, Priesthood, and Sacraments.

Paul,

I don't see your point.

[Esau]

Corrigendum:

I found it quite ridiculous since even after Rome converted to the Christian Faith, a majority of its people still lived very sinful and even faithless lives even after it had actually been converted; however, I wouldn't call what brought it to convert to Christianity meaningless or that it didn't actually convert to Christianity.

Why?

Because even after one converts, there is still the fallen nature of man to contend with! It doesn't somehow magically disappear after a person's conversion!

...And for those who doubt Russia's Conversion:

Russian church reunites, ending 80-year split

EXCERPT:

MOSCOW (AFP) - The domestic and exiled branches of the Russian Orthodox Church reunited in a ceremony here Thursday in the presence of Russian President Vladimir Putin, ending an 80-year split over communism.

Link:
Russian church reunites, ending 80-year split

[Tim J.]

"Russia's reconversion back to Orthodoxy can be a legitimate fulfillment of said prophecy"

I could buy that, sure. I just didn't get that you were using hyperbole earlier.

[Dr. Eric]

Esau,

That was part of my point a few dozen posts ago.

Now if only the East/West Schism would end!

[Dr. Eric]

TimJ,

The world wide web is not the best of media to convey one's meaning.

I wish this board had some smiley faces to help with the nuances involved. I think it would help.

[Lino]

The fact that there really are Grunerites (some of whom have posted above) helps me to understand how Slick Willy Clinton got elected and re-elected. The extent of stupidity in the world is mind-boggling.

[tim]

Dr. Eric and Esau, the conversion of Russia cannot be "conversion" to Russian Orthodoxy-- it is not the true faith, it is schismatic and does not acknowledge the authority of the Pope.

That is what I find so hilarious-- see, I HAVE to believe the private statements of the Pope's curial officials, or even the Pope's private statements, but the orthodox can not only disbelieve them but also DENY his basis of authority, and that is not only ok, but would also be Mary's intent at Fatima.

Who's Catholic here?

[Tim J.]

I still find it hilarious that Realist uses that screen name.

Apparently what impresses him is not real authority, but things like the number of pages in a book.

Well, this book has 800 pages, so it MUST be true! And the guy who wrote it must be really SMART! He has college degrees, and everything!

And this he calls "realism".

He doesn't WANT to read the Pope's book, because it is bad news for him and his delusory heroes. They become less relevant by the hour.

[Dr. Eric]

I know that I am Catholic enough not to have to base my Faith on a private apparition.

[The Big Seester]

Brian,

Cajun Nick's right - you're making me feel old too!

As far as not having seen Princess Bride and the Caine Mutiny...Get thee to a Netflixery!

Seriously, they are both great movies, and thoroughly enjoyable, although in totally different ways...

TBS

[tim]

Lino, your insult aside, I would bet that the "typical grunerite" would be far less likely to vote for Clinton than those unthinking individuals who buy the current line on Fatima.

But, keep those insults coming. It works a lot better than intelligent discourse.

[Dr. Eric]

tim,

While Orthodoxy may be schismatic, the Church does possess valid Episcopate, Presbyterate, and Sacraments.

Do you want the Russians to convert to Latin Catholicism?

[tim]

I want the Russians to convert to the Catholic Church.

Guess what? So does Jesus.

(He's our Lord).

[Dr. Eric]

Which Catholic Church?

(Hint, there are 22.)

[tim]

The Catholic Church is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic, Eric.

(Check the Nicene Creed)

There are different rites, but one Church.

As to the rite, whichever they like is fine with me.

[Brian]

Do you want the Russians to convert to Latin Catholicism?

Dr. Eric, you've gone too far in your question. We all want the world to convert to Roman Catholicism. But Russia probably wouldn't use the Latin rite.

[Dr. Eric]

Brian and tim,

You both missed the point, there are 22 Churches in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

There are 8 Rites.

A Church has a Patriarch or Catholicos as the head of the Church. Each of which is in Communion with the Roman Pontiff.

But to call them Rites when they are Particular Churches is an (unintentional insult.)

[tim]

Eric, is the Church one?

[Dr. Eric]

I agree that I want the Russians to become Catholic.

But, the apparition does not say that the Russians will become Catholics.

Remember that the Russian Orthodox Christians give the Holy Theotokos the same hyperdulia that we Catholics do.

The conversion of Russia can mean that they will become a Christian nation again instead of being the Atheistic scourge that they once were.

[Dr. Eric]

The Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

[Inocencio]

tim,

Please tell me what "legitimate authority" exists to say that the entire message has been revealed? The pope asked for the message to be revealed in its entirety to end speculation.

The local ordinary is the "legitimate authority" when it comes to private revelation. The local ordinary said it is worthy of belief and the local ordinary said Sr. Lucia wrote Calls from the Message of Fatima. Sr. Lucia wrote in her book that the Church has the authority to interpret the message. The Church has interpreted the message and the pope has said so. Who do you accept as the "legitimate authority" to end the matter if not the pope?

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

[tim]

Eric, I have to do some work to justify my pay, so I unwillingly leave off for now.

But I would sum up my objections to your entire line of commentary with the following assertion:

If you are to be believed, then Mary's prophecy at Fatima would be fulfilled today if she had said,

"If the Holy Father sort of consecrates Russia to my Immaculate Heart-- I mean, if he says "Russia", or "the world", or something close-- then I will intercede to produce a slightly less dangerous government there with an end to Communism for a time, even though crime and abortion continue to be rampant, and Russia will convert, sort of, to Orthodoxy, which must somehow comport with my Son's words to Peter about the keys, but anyway, what was I saying...? Oh well, just celebrate God's love and you'll be fine."

[Brian]

One thing I know is that I'm not competent to judge whether or not the prophecies of Fatima have been revealed and/or fulfilled. I'll defer to the testimony of two Popes and the Sister who witnessed them.

[Dr. Eric]

tim,

First, you have not proven my point about a private revelation being binding on anyone.

Second, the apparition, assuming it really was the Theotokos and not the imagination of a child, said that Russia would be converted, period.

Not converted to Roman Catholicism with Monday Night Novenas, Thursday Night Knights of Columbus meetings, Saturday Rosaries and Sunday Night Bingo.

Not converted to Russian Catholicism with the Patriarch of Russia as the head of the Russian Church using the Byzantine Rite (there's the difference between Rite and Church.)

Apparition says that Russia will be converted only. The rest is conjecture.

And the Orthodox only lack communion with the Pope and that's it, and that really only goes back a few centuries.

In the middle east, the Orthodox and the Catholics enjoyed intercommunion until the 1700s.

[Jordan Potter]

"Jordan, thanks for highly informed opinion about whether or not I am really a Catholic. Wow, that was helpful."

You're welcome. You obviously needed to hear it, for all the good it was likely to do.

"And, I am certainly not a fatima fanatic, nor a 'grunerite'. I am just a person with a brain, and, according to you, a sad individual masquerading as a Cathoic."

Well, to that we must add that you're someone who didn't read what I said very carefully. "Masquerading as a Catholic" are your words, not mine.

Also, since we know you have a brain, I would encourage you to use it correctly. Just because your favored interpretation of the Fatima secrets does not match the one favored by the Church, that doesn't mean the Church is wrong or the Church is hiding something. Please entertain the possibility that you could be wrong and the Church could be right. And please remember that if your interpretation is false, that doesn't mean the Blessed Virgin lied or uttered a false prophecy.

[Mark]

So we are living in the period of peace and the triumph of the Immaculate Heart?

Russia has converted? Last I checked she is becomming more authoritarian every day. Freedom House has recently moved Russia from being classified as partially free to unfree.

We are left in a very confusing position! Either Gruner is right or Our Blessed lady was lieing.

I wouldn't be one to claim therer is a 3rd secret cover up, the 3rd secret we have been given doesn't look as if it has been fulfilled yet!

There are plenty of prophecies at Akita which say how cardinals will lose their way!

I think the most realistic response considering all the facts is to say that the full consecration has not happend. Perhaps we could say a partial consecration occured in the eighties (to end communism) like the partial consecration by Pius Xii which ended the 2nd world war. But we still await a full consecration which will usher in the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart.

In the mean time we ought to follow the spirituality of St Louis Marie De Montfort who himself spoke of the coming triumph. We must consecrate ourselves to the Blessed Virgin.

[bill912]

The Consecration of Russia was accomplished by Pope John Paul II, as Our Lady requested, as per Sister Lucia. I post that for those who might not know this and might have believed that the above post to the contrary was correct.

[Dr. Eric]

Mark,

Russia is less authoritarian than the Holy Roman Empire or Franco's Catholic Spain.

Another possibility is that Our Lady is right and Gruner is wrong.

[bill912]

Make that the above *posts* to the contrary.

[Inocencio]

Mark,

I think the most realistic response considering all the facts is to say that the full consecration has not happend.

Sister Lucia personally confirmed that this solemn and universal act of consecration corresponded to what Our Lady wished (“Sim, està feita, tal como Nossa Senhora a pediu, desde o dia 25 de Março de 1984”: “Yes it has been done just as Our Lady asked, on 25 March 1984”: Letter of 8 November 1989). Hence any further discussion or request is without basis.

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH THE">http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html">THE MESSAGE OF FATIMA

I highly recommend anyone wishing to discuss this matter read this document which was issued by the legitimate authority of Pope John Paul II.

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

[Inocencio]

Sorry the link did not work.

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH THE MESSAGE OF FATIMA

I hope this does.

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J