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« The Virginia Tragedy | Main | An Update and a Request »

April 19, 2007

Comments

PNP, OP

Mourning with those who mourn...exactly. We rush to "fix" things everytime something like this happens, hoping that this time we will get enough cameras or layer on enough procedures or sacrifice enough scapegoats that it won't happen again. It will happen again. Plain and simple: evil is real and our hope is in the Lord.

Fr. Philip, OP
http://hancaquam.blogspot.com

Dan Hunter

Instead of shooting hoops with the kids,how about praying the Holy Rosary,and hearing Holy Mass.A lot more efficacious for souls and perfect for the grieving process.
Eternal rest grant unto them
O Lord
And let Perpetual Light
Shine Upon them
May their souls
and all the souls of the faithful Departed
Through the Mercy of God
Rest in Peace.
Amen.
God bless you.

Monica

Dan, why not do both? There is nothing wrong with spending a little time burning off stress with physical activity. Any activity can be done prayerfully, including shooting hoops with your kids.

SDG

Tim J, well said.

(I cringed when I saw a three-page story at MSNBC.com with a prominent link at the bottom of each page reading "Discuss: What do you think of Cho's manifesto?" I can't help thinking gratifying Cho would have found that. Just think, if he'd only posted his videos on YouTube, he wouldn't be getting a tenth of all this attention.)

Tim J.

Not to mention that I have no clue about Miller's religous affiliation so for him praying the Roasary or going to Mass might be a strange thing to expect. He did say he was praying.

OF COURSE we should all be praying and going to Mass and some Eucharistic Adoration wouldn't hurt, either.

I love the Rosary and find it a great weapon, but I understand there are those who don't find in it what I do and who prefer other prayers. More power to 'em.

The idea is, cherish your families and all those you love. Miller apparently likes to do that with a basketball sometimes.

Slowboy

It's very human to try and make unreasoning -reasonable.

Dan Hunter

The Rosary and prayerful baketball are fine.
But anyone can and should pray the rosary.The blessed Mother wants Catholics and protestants to pray the rosary.It is the most effective weapon to fight despair,sadness and anger.
If Mr Miller does not know how to pray it I can teach him.
Does anyone have his contact number or E-mail?
God bless you.

Esau

He understood the importance of a multi-media approach. He sent a package off to NBC with the absolute assurance that within a couple of days his image, his name, his rambling thoughts would be inescapable... a pervasive, 24-7, continuous loop of streaming video.


Amazing how the Media has, without any hesitation whatsoever, yielded to the very wishes of this demented creep!

Bad enough that he took the lives of several individuals (unconscionably MURDERED them for the very purpose of such NOTORIETY, it seems) and caused such PAIN to their families and loved ones (that will last MORE than just a LIFETIME!); but to actually witness how the Media has, in fact, accomodated (and even RESPECTED) his very demands and wishes is simply outrageous!

Even more, I can't believe those OPPORTUNISTS that have come forward, in the guise of experts and such, whose only purpose, it seems is -- not to help out the suffering victims of the tragedy, mind you -- but for the purpose of sheer aggrandizement and self-promotion!


In short, Miller was graceful. He was human, and he let everyone else be human, too.

Unfortunately, it often seems that Dennis Miller is underappreciated by most folks.

Kris

First, let me add my prayers and sympathy to those at VT. As a college student, I can only imagine how tragic and disturbing this would be had it happened on my campus. May the Lord's judgement be swift and his mercy boundless.

And Dan...

Come on! This guy responds to a tragedy by saying he wants to spend some time wih his kids and you jump on his back about not saying a rosary or praying with them more! How do you know he doesn't pray with them? Thank God there's a father out there who still sees playing with his kids a worthy thing to do.

Dr. Eric "El Catolico"

First let me say my prayers are with the families of the victims. My prayers are for mercy on the dead. My prayers are for others who may respond to the pressures of society who may act out in the same way that they may receive healing and Grace to stop their plans.

Second, Dennis Miller was raised a Catholic and I guess when he goes to church he goes to a Catholic Church. (I'm not commenting on his Mass attendance frequency as I don't know whether he goes once a day or only 3 times a year on the "Big Three.")

Third I don't pray the Rosary either, I read the Bible, pray with my kids, and pray the various Akathist Hymns.

Let's not try to push our favorite devotions which are based on private revelations on each other shall we.

SDG

But anyone can and should pray the rosary.The blessed Mother wants Catholics and protestants to pray the rosary.It is the most effective weapon to fight despair,sadness and anger.

With fear and trepidation at precipitating a righteous flame war:

Marian devotion is obligatory. We must all of us love our mother.

The rosary is warmly commended to all Catholics and all Christians. I pray it daily with my family. But particular devotional forms, the rosary included, are not matters of "should."

No precept in any magisterial source, papal teaching document, catechism, code of canon law, or comparable source which imposes any sort of duty to pray the rosary, AFAIK.

Something to this effect may certainly have been said in connection with some apparition or other, but then private revelation itself carries no weight of obligation. That's why it's private.

I believe that the Blessed Mother wants Catholics praying the rosary, but I cannot see that there is reason to say she (or her Son) is less pleased with Catholics who for whatever reason choose to honor her in other ways.

One can be a perfectly devout, loyal and obedient Catholic and go straight to heaven at death without ever praying the rosary. The rosary is a wonderful aid, but the Church is full of wonderful aids. It's the Church's business to tell Catholics what we ought to do.

(Again: I pray the rosary daily.)

Juli

For mass murderers and terrorists, I wish they would just mention the crime / attack and move one. Giving them all of this personal attention just fuels the fires of imitators that crave the publicity.

Mary Kay

Kris, if you're fairly new, Dan generally means well, but doesn't know how to stand in another's shoes. So I've learn to see Dan's posts for how he would respond to any given situation and just leave it at that.

TNP

Nothing like taking a horror and turning it into a debate on the best way to grieve. Sheesh.

Kris

Mary Kay--

Thanks for the insight. I've been a lurker here at JA.org for quite a while but rarely comment. I find the wisdom here often far surpasses my own. I will say your posts are always insightful and a pleasure to read.

Fr. John

In my bulletin column this Sunday, I take a different approach.

"We are all appalled at the awful murders at Virginia Tech. I’m sure that there is not a single parishioner who has not offered a prayer for the victims and their families. As I write this column on Wednesday morning, details about the life of the shooter are coming to light. He was apparently a troubled young man, isolated from all his peers, and angry at life. While very few pick up guns to aim at other people, we may well ask why there are so many angry and isolated people in our society. We seem, as a people, to permit, or even encourage, fits of anger and incivility. We can all see this. Driving on the highway, listening to talk radio, hearing the lyrics of some popular music, watching news programs, reading the letters to the local paper – in these and in many other places we encounter men and women whose voices are raised, whose fists are clenched, and who seem intent on blaming others. There is very little we can do about the rage of other people. But we can look inward, and try to see ourselves clearly. What sort of language do we use? What sort of thoughts do we encourage within ourselves? Do we assume other people have bad intentions? Do we judge others rashly, or unnecessarily? Do we allow our passions to get the best of us? Are we courteous and civil? Or are we rude, or even hostile? Do we radiate anger even when our mouths are closed?

We live in an angry society. But we do not need to be angry ourselves. We do not need to cooperate with it; we can refuse to give in to it. We can lower our own voice. We can decide not to meet angry words with more angry words. Hostility does not need to be met with hostility. We need not return insult for insult, judgment for judgment, gossip for gossip. We can pray for those who are angry. We have an obligation as Christians to resist this part of ourselves and our culture. And at the cost of our souls, we cannot give bad example to our children. Perhaps we should all spend some time thinking prayerfully about the words of the prayer attributed to St. Francis:

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.

O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.

Tim J.

Precisely, Father.

We can't really control "society" except through the decisions we make regarding OUR OWN behavior. That will have more influence than anything.

This would certainly (I would think) accomplish a great deal more than griping about tight skirts and video games.

Thanks.

Dan Hunter

Kris,
I realize there are many Catholic types of prayer aimed at the grief stricken,and us who are sympathetic,but the Holy Rosary is for everyone,the most powerful prayer of the Gospel that we have.
Mary Kay I am not being selfish when I say this. Wouldn't you want others as well as yourself to have access to the most efficacious prayer around?
The prayers of the Rosary are unmatched,accept for Holy Mass,in the grace's it showers down on us like dew from heaven.
God bless you,and the parents of the gunman.

Tim J.

Kris -

"I find the wisdom here often far surpasses my own."

The wisdom of silence is highly underrated.

Tim J.

"Katy"

One of my big problems with this whole tragedy is the fact that the media have provided for this disturbed man the platform he sought... he exploits his victims, he exploits the media, they exploit him AND his victims (God grant rest to them all) AND us.

He has the excuse of being insane. The media do not.

I am dead set against providing for this man (or any other like minded anti-social wannabe) a megaphone for his posthumous ravings. It feeds the problem and helps no one.

Unless you have some overriding point to make - and that you can explain rationally - do not post quotes from his incoherent "manifesto" on this thread any longer. I will delete them. If necessary, I will close the comments.

Now, do you have anything real to say?

Mary Kay

I find the wisdom here often far surpasses my own.

Kris, so do I. It's one reason I keep coming back. For your next sentence, thanks :)

Dan, this is to be taken gently, but where do you think I said you were selfish? Where do you read into my post anything for or against the rosary?

Read my post again. I said that you generally mean well. True? And I said that you don't know how to put yourself in others' shoes. Your posts say how you would respond to a given situation. But people are different and what's best for you might not be best for them. That's like a blind spot for you. That's all my post says, okay?

Katy, I'm assuming those quotes are from Cho as I haven't read any of it yet. While I think it was incredibly insensitive and tacky to air that so soon and killing 32 people is horrific, it would be of value to read that at some point.

Esau

One of my big problems with this whole tragedy is the fact that the media have provided for this disturbed man the platform he sought...

He has the excuse of being insane. The media do not.


EXACTLY!

As expressed previously, I cannot stand the fact that the Media actually accomodated and, therefore, respected the wishes of this murderous fiend!

This will only serve as 'inspiration' to those who might commit similar acts in order to achieve similar notoriety!


Yet, whether or not this particular individual was actually insane, that's still to be decided.

There are gangbangers who have similar thoughts, commit similar actions (though, arguably, not on this grand scale), and produced similar work as this scoundrel; yet, I don't think they're insane -- they know exactly what horrendous actions they're committing!

Mary Kay

Tim J, the media are certainly being exploitive. And certainly this is much, much too soon, but not be too hard on Katy.

This soon when the pain (for everyone) is at its most raw, the only helpful thing to do is to deal with the pain. Praying, talking, hoops.

But when the pain heals somewhat, for those who can, it could be helpful to read what Cho wrote. It is pain that many feel, but only some are aware of. As a society or even as Christians, too often we don't deal with that pain. That level is not for everyone to deal with, but God is always trying to stretch our capacity to love, which means taking in some of the pain that others carry.

My two cents.

Tim J.

"I'm assuming those quotes are from Cho... it would be of value to read that at some point."

I don't really know that it would, except to a professional (forensic psychologist, or some such). At any rate, now is not the time unless there is some actual point that just can't be made otherwise. His family must be unspeakably grieved to see him this way, not to mention the families of those he shot.

I know that he presents himself as a victim, but that is more than we know, and I did not like the insinuation (of the particular quotes I deleted) that maybe someone HAD IT COMING. That, to me, is out of bounds, and since I happen to be Emperor of this particular thread, I removed them.

Smokski I

and since I happen to be Emperor of this particular thread

When did I or Tsar Dr. Eric impart such authority on you? ;)

Dr. Eric "Katolykyj"

Yeah, what he said!

Esau

Yeah, what he said!

... and with those IMMORTAL Words came forth the unending TYRANNY of Ericosivich "Katolykyj", RUTHLESS Tsar of JA.O! ;^)

Dr. Eric

Esau,
The -vich suffix means son of.

I would be Tsar Eric Garovich.

"Katolykyj" is The Catholic like "Isabella La Catolica."

...And that's one to grow on.

;-)

Esau

The -vich suffix means son of.

Thanks for the info, Tsar Eric Garovich, Always August!!

Sonja

Probably a good instinct, there. I like Miller.

"I'm pro-gay marriage and pro-choice, but nobody wants to hear all that."
-- Dennis Miller

Tim J.

Fine. I said I liked the guy, I didn't say I agreed with everything he said.

Believe it or not, I have actually had friends - with whom I hung out socially - who disagreed with me on any number of issues. I have made beer with a New-Ager, ridden motorcycles with an agnostic and talked art with plenty of atheists.

Miller seems like someone I could actually converse with. Now, if he's in fact a pro-abort/pro-gay marriage Catholic then he has some serious problems, but that doesn't invalidate anything he said about Virginia Tech, which is what we're talking about.

Esau

Believe it or not, I have actually had friends - with whom I hung out socially - who disagreed with me on any number of issues.


I only hang-out with folks who are 100% Pro-Life! ;^P

Esau

... and only vote for folks who are as pure as Jesus Christ! ;^p

Chris

I don't take anything Dennis Miller says seriously. Like he says, "I'm a comedian, for God's sake!" If I find myself agreeing with him, I have to stand back and laugh.

Dr. Eric "Katolykyj"

Esau,

You don't vote for a Tsar.

o;^)

(Halo)

Mary Kay

Dr. Eric, how do you do rolled eyes? :)

Tsar Eric of Mississouri

Mary Kay,

I don't know, I wish this comment board had some smiley guys sometimes. :^) (Esau smiley)

Esau

You don't vote for a Tsar.

EXACTLY!

That's why I found your appeal for our votes for you as Tsar in the other thread particularly ridiculous (not to mention, annoying)!

;^)

Kasia

Ah, but Esau, he did redeem himself by granting me a considerable duchy. Go easy on the guy! ;-)

Smokski I

That's why I found your appeal for our votes for you as Tsar in the other thread particularly ridiculous

Then you missed my original post which started this whole Emperor / Tsar / Duchy tomfoolery.

I stated that I was running for president of the U.S., but that my platform consisted of spinning off part of the U.S. as a sovereign nation, abdicating the U.S. presidency, and declaring myself Emperor of that nation.

So, you didn't vote for an Emperor (or Tsar) -- you voted for a president who turned out to be a despotic power hungry stooge.

Esau

Ah, but Esau, he did redeem himself by granting me a considerable duchy.


Yeah -- you did -- but all I got was this lousy t-shirt that reads:

"I Voted Eric Garovich for Tsar -- why you have to vote for a Tsar, I do not know -- but all I got was this ugly t-shirt"

(actually, the line above was so long, you'd have to read it from front-to-back! ;^) )

J.R. Stoodley

Great post, Tim. Unfortunately the Fox video won't work for me.

My thought, which you touched on, is that all this attention is probably exactly what this guy wanted. It almost seems we are rewarding him by presenting his message to the world and airing even just clips of his video.

On the other hand the attention is inevitable and perhaps we can learn from it. Also wherever he is I imagine he can derive no peasure from the attention today, but still it somewhat seems like we're rewarding him.

Smoky Mountain Referee

It almost seems we are rewarding him

I don't see how we can reward or punish him. He is dead.

What bothers me about the airing of his "manifesto" is 1.) the possibility of a copy-cat act and 2.) the disrespect it shows to the family and friends of the victims.

Esau

J.R. Stoodley is actually right in saying:

"My thought, which you touched on, is that all this attention is probably exactly what this guy wanted. It almost seems we are rewarding him by presenting his message to the world and airing even just clips of his video."


... when you consider the fact that this was exactly what he wanted.


This is actually why I made my remarks above which referred to how the media actually accomodated (and, therefore, wrongfully showed respect for) the very wishes of this murderer.

J.R. Stoodley

Another thought.

I was surprised to hear of the big response from the South Korean government, which is afraid of anti-Korean and racist sentiment being generated in America. Also I had dinner with a South Korean yesterday and she brought up to the whole group that she thought South Korea had a bad image now.

How could anyone judge a whole nation on the action of just one of its citizens, much less a citizen who had spent most of his life in America? It just doesn't make sense to me why this would even be a concern. I hope its just people being paranoid, thinking Americans are far stupider and biased than they really are, but perhaps some of us really are that bad.

I for one had a South Korean pastor for most of my childhood, back in my Methodist days. He was very conservative for a United Methodist pastor (meaning he was an actual Christian in beliefs and basic morality)and really was instrumental in forming the base of my Christian faith. Recently the church got another South Korean pastor because they specifically asked for one, since the white American pastor they had in the interim was horrible and the Korean Methodists in general seem to be a bit more solid in faith. I don't know him so well but he's certainly a nice guy.

All the other South Koreans I've known, from the two I went to grade school with to the one I was talking to yesterday have been nice, normal people. The attack doesn't even seem to have been based on any kind of specifically Korean philosophy anyway. Would anyone really decide they hate or mistrust Koreans because of this?

Esau

How could anyone judge a whole nation on the action of just one of its citizens, much less a citizen who had spent most of his life in America? It just doesn't make sense to me why this would even be a concern.

Reality-Check, Mr. Stoodley ---

When people see Middle-Eastern American Citizens, don't some folks wrongly mis-judge them as being terrorists?

Also, remember in World War II when Japanese American civilians were actually gathered up and quarantined?

J.R. Stoodley

The difference is that terrorist acts have a lot of support in the Middle East and are derrived from a religious philosophy that is prominent in the region and even may Arab-Americans

In the case of the Japanese it was that the actual nation of Japan attacked us and native-born Americans were understandibly concerned about whether Japanese-Americans were more loyal to Japan or America.

In this case though its just a dumb, probably crazy kid raised mostly in America but who happens to have been born in South Korea. That's very different and I can't see how anyone could be stupid enough to project his actions onto other Koreans.

Tim J.

"It just doesn't make sense to me why this would even be a concern."

Perhaps a variation of the Oriental sense of Family Honor (as alien as that concept may be to Westerners)?

Esau

J.R. Stoodley:

It's an inescapable fact (unfortunately) that people actually do GENERALIZE folks based on the actions of a single (or even group) of individual(s).

Mary

That's very different and I can't see how anyone could be stupid enough to project his actions onto other Koreans.

His classmates laughed, pointed at him and said: "Go back to China."

Joseph Fromm

This will not overshadow the Supreme Court ruling against partial birth abortion.

Headnoises

In this case though its just a dumb, probably crazy kid raised mostly in America but who happens to have been born in South Korea. That's very different and I can't see how anyone could be stupid enough to project his actions onto other Koreans.

In the US? We'd find it rude. In RoK? They have a habit of taking the actions of one as the actions of the whole.
(Navy, visited twice, land fall once, got LOTS of lectures and lots of presentations of how the actions of a single one would be used against ALL Americans.)

I think it may be a cultural thing-- just like the polite part of the US's horror of even considering that ethnic stuff is relivant is kinda cultural. ;^)

Dan Hunter

Mary Kay,
You said earlier,that I do not know how to stand in anothers shoes.This means that I only know how to stand in my own shoes which seems to me to be saying that I am only aware of what is good for mySELF.
I do know what is good and right for myself,through the teachings of Holy Mother Church;Her Sacred Tradition,Magisterial Teaching and Sacred Scripture.But this same truth applies to all human beings of any creed or non creed,be they pro-death,or pro-gay as I have heard Mr.Miller is.
The Holy Rosary is for everyone,in every instance,crisis,stalemate or peace.
The Rosary will beat down Satan,raise up the terrified and disheartened and drive out personal animosity,always.
Not a living one of us can do better,save the Mass,by the Triune Godhead and The Second Persons Mother,than praying this weapon.
God bless you.

Brian

The rosary is for everyone and for every situation, but that doesn't mean it's for each person in each situation. For example, the rosary is for Dennis Miller's kids and the rosary is for coping with the VT murders. But if Dennis Miller's kids have never prayed the rosary then going home and praying the rosary with them would probably not be better than a family bonding activity that they commonly do with their dad (shooting hoops). I think that's what Mary Kay was trying to say by not putting yourself in their shoes.

Mary Kay

Brian, thanks, yes that was what I was trying to say.

Dan, I agree with you about that prayer the rosary is powerful. For myself, I have a strong personal preference for the rosary and pray five decades every day.

Other people I know pray the chaplet associated with Divine Mercy and that's what they turn to at times like this.

Still others find it helpful to run off some energy first, something I can easily see parents doing with kids. That doesn't mean that they take it any less seriously. Or that they have less of a connection with God.

It's good when you say that you find the rosary helpful. But it's not up to you to say that someone is handling their grief the wrong way and they should pray the rosary when you think they should pray it.

There's a 12 step saying of "Let go and let God." For you, that means letting God take care of those grieving. He knows what they need far better than you or I do.

Suzanne

Dan,

I understand that the Rosary is great devotion as my family prays it daily. But if I tried to get my Southern Baptist sister-in-law and her family to pray it, I think it would have adverse effects. They aren't ready for it because they have Mary issues. That doesn't mean we don't try to charitably evangelize in small ways, but right now, they aren't there yet.

Sometimes plowing through harshly demanding that everyone pray a certain way and not gently evangelizing does nothing but separate people even more.

Mind you, my family prays the Rosary every day and sees great value in it.

Monica

Dan, I think the key is dealing with people where they are, rather than where you think they should be. For example many converts take a long time to come to terms with Mary, but I'm sure she doesn't mind the wait. Forcing the rosary on them before they have come to terms with Mary's role will do more harm than good.

Brian

Dan, playing basketball with your kids as a bonding activity is an act of Christian love. The selfless sharing of yourself with your kids is a way of revealing God's love to them. It's not the same as the rosary or as great as the rosary, but its still a medium for connecting with God. You may be in danger of coming close to saying something like we should pray a rosary with the hungry instead of giving them food.

Dan Hunter

I am speaking objectively about the rosary and it being the most powerful prayer other than Holy Mass to combat sin in ourselves and therefore the world.
We must constantly evangalize those who are outside of the Church,and urge them with Christ's guidance to pray the rosary.
My wife and I have taught the rosary to atheist Buddhists and they are occasionally praying the rosary.They have started attending a Christian protestant church and do so with regularity having given up atheism and their version of Buddhism.This is a good first step.
We have,with Gods Grace,taught the rosary to a Baptist minister who is 90 years old and he now joins us in praying it.
With Divine assistance this monumental salutary prayer can be prayed by all.
I was not saying that the way others pray is wrong.I am saying,rather,that why not take advantage of the best way to pray.
Who,if he had a choice between garnets and sapphires would chose the former.
God bless you.

Mary Kay

Dan, the very large, huge, difference between the examples of teaching the rosary you gave and this week is in your examples the people were not trying to deal with the raw pain of this week's carnage.

If you can't see the difference, then perhaps you should include that as a prayer intention that God show you that difference.

Esau

We must constantly evangalize those who are outside of the Church,and urge them with Christ's guidance to pray the rosary.


Dan:

I wanted to not engage in this, knowing already your viewpoints.

But I just wanted to say that there's a difference between urging folks to practice such beliefs and actually imposing such beliefs on another.

I, myself, pray the Rosary.

However, it's NOT the only means by which to devote one's self to Christ.

This things will come more and more...


Till we realize that the punishments told by Our Lady have began...

Xavier

But it should be an essential piece (the Rosary)

Esau

But it should be an essential piece (the Rosary)


The Rosary is only one form of devotion.

Brian

I am speaking objectively about the rosary and it being the most powerful prayer other than Holy Mass to combat sin in ourselves and therefore the world.

Dan, your first post was: "Instead of shooting hoops with the kids,how about praying the Holy Rosary,and hearing Holy Mass." That's a pretty specific statement rather than an objective one. No one's debating the grace that comes from praying the rosary. If you had said "In addition to..." and not "Instead of..." this thread would have died long ago.

Esau

Dan, your first post was: "Instead of shooting hoops with the kids,how about praying the Holy Rosary,and hearing Holy Mass."

Exactly!

Thank-you Brian!

That's where, I think, Dan may be imposing what he thinks is the right course of action on folks rather than merely suggesting it.

Xavier

But Our Lady in Fatima did not ask for the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy nor ask to read the Bible to save mankind from terrible punishments.

None of these. The Rosary was.

When man was bad and then began to pray the Rosary, they converted and things got better.

But now the world is not only not Catholic, it is anti-Catholic and it does not pray the Rosary.


Sodom has nothing on us...

Xavier

That is true, you can't impose things...

And you can't entirely convince...

Grace is everything.

Esau

But Our Lady in Fatima did not ask for the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy nor ask to read the Bible to save mankind from terrible punishments.

None of these. The Rosary was.


I can say the same thing about the apparition and the Rosary -- NONE of these things were in the Bible.

This things will come more and more...


Till we realize that the punishments told by Our Lady have began...

Uh? The punishments foretold by Our Lady began in 1917. It's not like the past century was all happy and peaceful, and now school shooters are introducing the first note of violence.

And the Bible is not the only source of Revelation, as you know.

And the Bible does not say anything about the Bible! ;>

Kasia

No, Our Lady in Fatima didn't ask us to pray the Divine Mercy chaplet.

Our Lord himself did that. To St. Faustina. As a vehicle of His grace and mercy.

Teaching the rosary to Buddhists might actually be easier than teaching it to Baptists, as the latter actively (albeit incorrectly) believe that Marian devotion is pagan.

And I would choose garnets over sapphires, both because I prefer them and because they're my birthstone. :-) Now, if you said PEARLS... ;-)

EileenR

Oops, that was me about the 'punishments'

Xavier

But the worst punishments have not come.

Anihalation of countries have not come.

The 3 dark days that many saints spoke about have not come.


In essence, this evil dominated world is still very much alive.

But not for long.

Esau

And the Bible is not the only source of Revelation, as you know.

There's a BIG difference between PUBLIC revelation and PRIVATE revelation.

PRIVATE revelation is not binding on the Faithful.

EileenR

Xavier, there's nothing about three dark days in Fatima. Shame on you for bringing in three dark days when you should be praying the rosary!

This is just following your logic, mind you.

Xavier

Not take away from the Chaplet (I have a sort of "no" with it because many progressivists and modernists pray it {Charismatics...} and replace it with the Rosary, {lazy bums!}) but it was not key in the general state of the world.
The Rosary has and is, and will be.
Man has not prayed, so the chastisementwill come.

EileenR

Xavier:
But Our Lady in Fatima did not ask for the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy nor ask to read the Bible to save mankind from terrible punishments.

None of these. The Rosary was.

When man was bad and then began to pray the Rosary, they converted and things got better.

But now the world is not only not Catholic, it is anti-Catholic and it does not pray the Rosary.

So when was it that man began to pray the Rosary, converted and things got better? What *date* are you talking here?

Xavier

The 3 dark days that many saints talked about!

Esau I am just trying to break that femalish (hey just saying the truth, we have our own) defect of wanting to be the best and I am never wrong.

I am not saying anything in contrary, I just wanted to break that spirit you were acting in.

Got me?

Esau

replace it with the Rosary, {lazy bums!})

Xavier:

Are you then saying that it's better that these folks do not have any devotion at all if it's not the Rosary?

EileenR

Esau I am just trying to break that femalish (hey just saying the truth, we have our own) defect of wanting to be the best and I am never wrong.

Ever heard the saying, give a man enough rope and he'll hang himself?

*applauds Xavier for proving the truth of it*

Xavier

Eileen R,

I give you several examples later I got to go.

But I'll leave you at this.

The History of Mankind has always been line diamonds and circles.

Mankind starts off a point, growing in faith and virtue and then it hits an appex and evil is able to begin a decadence, like the next part of the diamond, till it is about to reach a point where indescribable things are happening.

Then God, eternal, like a circle, has no begining and not end, intervenes, and the diamond comes again.

This last Diamond will reach horrors and is reaching horrors, so much that the Circle must intervene.


Soon.


O <> O <> O <> O <> O <> O <> O <> O <> O

EileenR

Xavier, you're a misogynist. You'd better repent of that before you judge other people.

Xavier

Eileen,

Men have worst defects right now.

They lose their moral preservation faster...
They live for pleasure and nothing else...
So on and so on...

But be content Eileen, in that Man desired and did commit Deicide and killed Our Lord.


Woman was the only one who did not, and stood by Our Lord at all times, even when the Apostoles did not.

Dan Hunter

The Rosary is, objectively speaking,the best prayer other than holy mass,bar none.
This does not mean that other Church approved or personal prayer will not have great effect, just that Our Lady commanded us to pray the rosary regularly.It really helps the family as well as the individual during personal and national tragedy better than anything else.
God bless you

Joe S.

Folks, I hate to say it but when a person has given himself over to superstitious fetishes, there is no reasoning with him. It would be the same as trying to reason with me if I claimed that, "St. John the Baptist appeared to me and told me that the world will be destroyed in 5 years if I don't pray the 'Our Father' 12 times per month in honor of the 12 apostles." That a person would make an alleged apparition of a saint the whole basis of his spirituality shows that he is not thinking clearly.

Xavier

Am not!

The old good books for confessors speak about how you must adapt and work with the different psycologies of Man and Woman, and get rid of the tendencial defects of both.

The Cardinal preaching to the Pope right now had said that the evil in the world is making man effaminate and woman masculine in the bad sense.

There are real differences among us.

But they are not nessecarily bad, they are harmomious.

Joe S.

Dan,

What objective evidence can you give that shows that the Rosary is the best prayer (second to the Mass). The ancient fathers of the Church would have preferred the "Jesus Prayer." Our Lord seemed to prefer the Our Father.

Xavier

And who just judged who Eileen?! ;)

EileenR

Xavier, what you're saying is pure nonsense.

I am just trying to break that femalish (hey just saying the truth, we have our own) defect of wanting to be the best and I am never wrong.

To ascribe that trait to women is indicative of a deep-seated antagonism towards women ie. misogyny. Particularly in an argument where you're trying to prove that *you* are in the right.

It comes across very much as if your issue with women is that they don't do what men like you tell them to.

Esau

Xavier:

I have no idea where you're going with in regards to the diamond/circle thingy or even where you got that from -- though your drawing made for an interesting aesthetic.

Dan:

This does not mean that other Church approved or personal prayer will not have great effect, just that Our Lady commanded us to pray the rosary regularly.It really helps the family as well as the individual during personal and national tragedy better than anything else.

I don't think anybody here is actually saying that the Rosary doesn't have such great effect for those who practice it -- only that it shouldn't be shoved down people's throats.

Xavier

Nope.

And I think you missunderstood the "I am never wrong"

It was part of the list of defects.

But since you are characterizing the defects,

I will do the only thing that will get you to stop being unreasonable..

Yes, you are right, so very right.


Manuals to Confessors hmm.

I know about those.

And indeed the older ones say that woman, without losing there feminine nature, should be brought to reason like man, in the sense that they should rely more on reason than sensibility.

Brian

But Our Lady in Fatima did not ask for the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy nor ask to read the Bible to save mankind from terrible punishments.

No, Our Lady didn't ask for the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy to save mankind from terrible punishments. But Our Lord did.

The Rosary may very well be the greatest thing this side of Mass, but you can't make an objective statement that one should pray the rosary over any other activity. You can only look at particular situations and decide what's the best thing to do. In fact, one can't even pray the rosary without first reading the Gospel, otherwise the mysteries will be meaningless.

And we can't mandate the rosary on anyone because, as many people have said it's private revelation. A doctor might recommend the South Beach diet to all of his patients so that they will be healthy. But that doesn't mean that only people on the South Beach diet are healthy. The rosary is recommended to everyone, but that doesn't mean that someone who doesn't pray the rosary is spiritually dead or isn't doing their part to save souls.

EileenR

And now you charmingly continue by explaining how women are unreasonable.

Sir, you need to repent of your hateful attitude towards women. You are treading very dangerous ground in the eyes of God.

Xavier

The ones that are acting like you are.

No one likes to hear about their defects.

If you want to speak about mens fine.

No problem.

But this is not the oppertunity.

I was simple speaking to specific case.

You, like Eve and not Our Lady, are acting on pure emotion and sensibility, because I have backed up what I have said.

You are accusing me of hating women, which is pretty stupid because I am a moral person, and have never even dishonored a woman and have it clear that they should be defended and protected from lustful idiots.

It is just not true.

EileenR

Speaking hatefully towards and about women does not mean that you lust after women or think they should be physically or sexually violated. Do you really think that there are no other forms of dishonouring women than sexually?

You, like Eve and not Our Lady, are acting on pure emotion and sensibility, because I have backed up what I have said.

How have you backed up what you said? You've ranted that women have less intelligence than men and that they always insist on being right.

Dan Hunter

Esau,
I am not shoving the Rosary down anyones throat.
I am just stating the fact that Our Blessed Mother has commanded us to pray the Rosary more than any other prayer.
Our Blessed Mother knows what is best for every one of us better than what we think we know ourselves.
If I was going to shove my own will down someones throat I would tell them to sing the Marine Corps Hymn thrice a day.But this wouldn't do squat.
God bless you.

Esau

Xavier:

Are you by any chance a 'Postulate'?

Your manner of speaking reminds me of someone I know.

Although, I admit, you seem to have an unyielding devotion, which, itself, is admirable.

However, the only problem I find is that it seems to be misplaced.

Man's defects, my friend, are many; however, it is coming to terms with these defects and, above all, looking up to the Lord for spiritual guidance can we actually conquer them!

Brian

Not take away from the Chaplet (I have a sort of "no" with it because many progressivists and modernists pray it {Charismatics...} and replace it with the Rosary, {lazy bums!})

Xavier, I'm not big on the Charismatic movement, but you seem to be calling all Charismatics progressivists and modernists and all people with a devotion to Divine Mercy lazy bums. First of all that type of sweeping generalization isn't charitable. Secondly, by your logic all Catholics are lazy, progresso-modernist bums because most Catholics disagree with the Authority of the Church.

John Paul II canonized St. Faustina and made Divine Mercy Sunday a Holy Day. Are you doubting his Marian devotion because he also promoted the Divine Mercy Chaplet? After all, time spent praying the chaplet is time that could have been spent praying the rosary.

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