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March 27, 2007

Comments

Patrick A

2008? Are you kidding me? I have to wait until 2008 to find out about Jimi Hendrix?

S Schmitt

So is Starbuck the 5th secret Cylon?

Kevin

I stopped watching BSG about a month ago when the show basically turned into "Days of our Lives -- IN SPACE!" However, I did tune in for the finale and thought it was another lame episode from a show that has declined precipitously. I would not be the least bit surprised if, at the start of the next season, it turns out that in fact, they are not Cylons at all, but have had some chips implanted in their heads that play music, or something equally stupid. Either way, I doubt I'll bother with the show again. I've been watching Stargate SG-1 on DVD and have found it to be a much more interesting program.

A friend of mine who has watched BSG from the beginning and is equally disappointed made the observation (correct in my opinion) that the overarching plot (i.e., "let's find Earth") advanced too quickly, leaving us with all this melodramatic filler for the last 2+ months. (Good heavens, if I ever have to watch another episode with Captain Sanctimonious -- aka Helo -- I swear I will fling my TV out the window.)

Sifu Jones

Aw, it's not that bad. Quite good at times, actually. Granted there have been terribly weak episodes, but I get the feeling next season is the last.

Yeah, I'm guessing Starbuck is the 5th cylon, along with the other 4. Somehow I think the 5 are against the 7, and are trying to protect humanity.

I'm pretty sure Starbuck's been to earth, and maybe even learned the Hendrix song there (I don't think it's just part of the soundtrack, since the characters actually recited the words that we all know).

My guess: she's the uber-Cylon of the 5, and she sent them that music that she learned on her visit to earth as a kind of trigger of some sort. She can probably control them, or at least communicate with them. They're probably the last of their model, or perhaps there never was more than one.

Who knows? That's my guess, anyway.

Ann Margaret Lewis

Ooh. Some good speculating here. Yes, I think the final 5 are against the 7, and Starbuck is one of them.

And doggone it...2008???? NOOOOO.
--Ann

Mike Koenecke

Um... it's not a Hendrix song, it's a Dylan song (that Hendrix covered, and did indeed produce the definitive version). I agree about Captain Sanctimonious, but think that Major PainintheTuchis (Apollo) has managed to trump him the past few episodes. I'll still watch, but the shine's rather off the tomato.

JD

I'm much more of a Voyager man than BSG. Who's with me?

Esau

They're probably the last of their model

I was thinking the same thing; that perhaps they're part of an older model of cylons.

She can probably control them, or at least communicate with them.

I don't think control them, although perhaps communicate with them.

Communicate, yes; but control them?

If she could control them, then what of the tensions between Starbuck and Tigh since the beginning? All of that could've easily been avoided had she this ability unless, of course, it were latent and she just happened upon it due to a sudden epiphany of sorts when she was supposedly 'lost'.

Now, wonder if perhaps she and the others aren't but an older model of cylons actually created by the colonials way back when in order to defend and preserve humanity from the other rogue cyclons that came to be? I know -- lame and a pretty big stretch! Not to mention, it's derivative.

LarryD

I'm a Doctor Who fan, myself. Series 3 starts this weekend in England; hopefully Sci-Fi will rebroadcast the season this summer like they did for season 2.

Esau

hopefully Sci-Fi will rebroadcast the season this summer like they did for season 2.

I think they also show this on the BBC channel.

Giacinto

There's still a possibility that Baltar or someone else is the 5th cylon and not Starbuck. Apollo didn't see her ship destroyed. I suppose she could have jumped or something.

And what about Chief??? He's got a kid. A half cylon kid!

Esau

Apollo didn't see her ship destroyed. I suppose she could have jumped or something.

Uhhh... Giacinto, did you see the Season Finale?

You might want to watch towards the very end of it where Starbuck actually 'resurfaced' and, in fact, divulged to Apollo that she had been to earth.

Of course, it was kinda awesome how they pulled back from the shot of them in their vipers and then shot straight forward to a picture of earth, roughly showing just how far they were from it based on their current bearings.

Ed Pie

Not to mention, it's derivative.

"The cylons look like us now" has annoyed me for that very reason since the pilot.

Starbuck can be interesting, but I was relieved to see her bite it a few weeks ago. At the risk of sounding like a twelve year old fanboy, that love triangle business was really a waste of a special effects budget.

It hasn't been enough to make me stop watching, but sometimes I wish they'd not so much reach Earth in 1980 as they'd run into some sort of interplanetary federation in the 24th century. That'd end the conflict right quick.


And did anyone else think Felix Gaeta was really acting out of character on the stand? I never doubted he was a patriot but having him stoop to perjury seemed like a cheap way to make Baltar's verdict more dramatic. Then again, most of the weird stuff didn't happen until New Caprica, so mabye there was something in the water.

Esau

"The cylons look like us now" has annoyed me for that very reason since the pilot.

That's probably why I really didn't watch the series until (relatively) recently.

I thought it would be derivative of all the sci-fi storylines that had robots looking like us.


Starbuck can be interesting, but I was relieved to see her bite it a few weeks ago. At the risk of sounding like a twelve year old fanboy, that love triangle business was really a waste of a special effects budget.

Same here.


It hasn't been enough to make me stop watching, but sometimes I wish they'd not so much reach Earth in 1980 as they'd run into some sort of interplanetary federation in the 24th century. That'd end the conflict right quick.

Galatica 1980!

I think the only episode I saw from that one was the one that actually had Starbuck (Dirk Benedict, that is) on.

Still, no matter how cheesy the original Battlestar Galatica was, I still miss Lorne Greene's wise father-figure of Adama as well as the awesome Battelstar Galatica theme!

Though, the new series seems to indulge itself with more popular themes as politics and other controversial issues.

Yet, when the guy who plays Adama in the new series was interviewed on the radio station out here, he actually said that even in spite of what could be deemed as 'good ratings', it seems that the Sci-Fi channel might still be thinking about cancelling it -- though the radio DJs were rather skeptical.

Trubador

Do yourselves the favor of getting the complete set of Farscape DVDs (4 seasons + 2-part miniseries finale) and watch it from beginning to end.

Esau

Ah -- Farscape -- another disappointment that had great potential.

I wonder if BSG will end likewise.

Dennis_Mahon

The SciFi Channel just ordered another twenty episodes--BSG isn't going to be canceled.

I am mystified as to how they're going to work Starbuck's resurfacing into the show--she disappeared several "jumps" back, and Vipers don't have jump engines. Just who was the Avatar? Are they introducing "The Others" into the storyline?

Esau

Are they introducing "The Others" into the storyline?

I was thinking the same thing!

I thought it would be those 'white' people that was the 'ghost' that Apollo was seeing on his radar.

I was thinking to myself "OH NO! NOT THOSE GUYS!"

That would make it really cheesy if they were to follow that storyline!

Granted, what they've done so far in the series have been against the grain all things considered in comparison with the original series.

Esau

I thought it would be those 'white' people that was the 'ghost' that Apollo was seeing on his radar.

To add, especially when they kept on showing shots of Apollo looking back and forth out of the window of his viper, trying to see what was behind him or around him.

Realist

The shows are very interesting when there are ten or more Cylons in the episode. This rarely happened this year. Fry Baltar's little rear end and lets get on with finding Earth and the destruction or assimulation of the bad guys.

Esau

Fry Baltar's little rear end and lets get on with finding Earth and the destruction or assimulation of the bad guys.


Realist,

The only thing about frying Baltar is that you may very well loose the intrigue that is predominantly due to his character's presence in the series. It seems he's become so integral to the series (as well, I guess, to its 'well-being' as in 'possible cancellation'), that they'll tend to preserve the existence of the character.

However, about the latter, we'll just have to wait and see.

Although, I really hope things don't go downhill from this end.

It almost seems like it is in spite of the seemingly 'jaw-dropping' cliff-hanger.

J

I think they'll all get to earth and find out they're ALL cylons, or that earth is ALL cylon or something like that...

Gene Branaman

I read an interview with Ron Moore in which he called the final 5 Cylons "fundamentally different" from the other Cylons we've seen up til now. Interesting. That makes me think they're there to protect the human race rather than dominate or wipe them out. Of course, Anders, Chief, Tigh, & Roslyn's assistant (what's her name again?) don't know what sort of Cylon they are yet but they're all assuming they're of the bad sort. I think that'll make for some very interesting plots. And, then there's Chief's kid . . . So, if the final 5 are "good" Cylons, what's up with Athena? Has she totally defected from the "bad" Cylons? It would seem she has - she's not given us cause to believe otherwise. (And perhaps Caprica Six has, too. She's just been in prision & couldn't really prove herself. But now, she's seen the same vision as Athena & Roslyn. Will this sway her to the human side?) If the final 5 are "fundamentally different" from the other Cylons, wouldn't that mean Chief's kid is fundamentally different from Hera? And what, exactly, are the ramifications of that, if it's true?

Recall D'anna (Lucy Lawless) saying "I'm sorry" when she saw the face of one of the final 5? Which one was it? What is she sorry for? Evil Cylon brutality? Something else? That most definitely needs exploring. Were Cylons never supposed to be what they turned out to be? Didja see Six's face when she saw the final 5 in the balcony of the theater? That was not a look of happiness on her face! She was fearful about the 5 revealing themselves. Could the Cylons we know be the equivalent of the fallen angels? If so, the final 5 could be what they were truly meant to be! If so . . . who meant them to be that way? The humans who created them? We're told that the Cylons "evolved" in the title sequence. Did they "evolve" into the evil Cylons outside of human care? Did God step in? This is a show that has taken religion very seriously. What exactly are we headed for here when it comes to the religious aspect of the show?

I've enjoyed season 3.5 quite a lot, actually. I've thought the writing has, for the most part, been quite good. (As good as that on Heroes & 24, 2 of the 3 other TV shows I watch regularly.) They've focused more on the details & on characters in the last 10 eps than they did in the previous seasons & I think that will pay off as we get into season 4. All this character development could lead to very plot-driven shows next year. This is a show with a long memory & early set-ups took until late in season 2 to pay off. I think we'll find what seem to be tangent eps (Chief & his wife trapped in a docking bay, for example) will have much more meaning in season 4.

Is Kara the fifth Cylon? I'm not so sure. Why, exactly, was Baltar able to communicate with Six? We still don't know that. Where has he been taken & by whom? He's very much a Snape-ish sort of figure. Friend or foe? One thing I've always thought about Baltar is, Does he really know who he is? There seems to always be this conflict within him about his purpose. Except, if he is one of the final 5, why didn't he hear the music? Perhaps because he's been in contact with Six for so long?

Kara? Hmmm . . . Perhaps she went through the "Eye of Jupiter" that she's been drawing since childhood rather than die & resurrect on a ship? Perhaps she's part of a fulfillment of a prophecy? I simply can't remember what prophecies we've been told so I can't really say. All I can say is I knew she wasn't out of the show when she "died" & I knew she'd be back at the very end of the season finale. Sort of like I knew Gandalf would be coming back when I first read LOTR . . . Is Kara a Cylon? Is she a . . . spirit or has she been (for lack of a better term) glorified in some way? Whatever it turns out to be, she'll be a major hero of the show. And I think we'll find that the conflicted, suffering, hard-living Starbuck is indeed dead. Kara Thrace lives. They may have used her as a bit of what Hitchcock would call a "MacGuffin" - a device used to make the viewer think it's one way, when it isn't. We'll see.

Also, Ron Moore said the Caprica show was almost dead but that there may be a movie out of it. And before the 22 eps of season 4 start next year, there'll be a 2-hour presentation of 2 eps that are sort of flashbacks to Kara & Admiral Cain that will lead right into major plot points of season 4. That will air in late 2007 & be out on DVD very soon after.

Gene Branaman

Oh, also, in the interview I read, Moore said he was interested in exploring the "ship of light" from the original series. As Esau said above, I'm sure it'll be nothing like it was in the original!

Esau

I think they'll all get to earth and find out they're ALL cylons, or that earth is ALL cylon or something like that...


J:

That's seems rather interesting -- especially the latter!

They reach Earth only to find out that it's inhabited by the human cylons!

derringdo

Any definition of "what the Cylons were supposed to be" that includes Tigh and Starbuck seems to me to indicate that the Cylons' creators/evolvers were even stupider than I initially thought ;)

Esau

? Is she a . . . spirit or has she been (for lack of a better term) glorified in some way? Whatever it turns out to be, she'll be a major hero of the show. And I think we'll find that the conflicted, suffering, hard-living Starbuck is indeed dead. Kara Thrace lives.

I don't think she's resurfaced to that extent.

What you describe here reminds me of the ascended form of Dr. Jackson in SG-1, which, thankfully, is coming to an end!


Why, exactly, was Baltar able to communicate with Six? We still don't know that. Where has he been taken & by whom? He's very much a Snape-ish sort of figure. Friend or foe? One thing I've always thought about Baltar is, Does he really know who he is? There seems to always be this conflict within him about his purpose.

See, this is where it seems a bit derivative as well -- I recall a sci-fi storyline where a human android didn't realize the fact that he was merely the android of the original creator of androids, which had kept himself alive through several centuries by replicating himself in a new model.

What can be the case is that Baltar (who might actually be the original creator of the cylons) replicated himself so much to the point where only his subconscious knows his actual identity.

Moore said he was interested in exploring the "ship of light" from the original series. As Esau said above, I'm sure it'll be nothing like it was in the original!

I hope it will be different than the original!

One thing the series prove, they try to defy the original (thank goodness!).

Esau

To add to what I said in terms of:

What can be the case is that Baltar (who might actually be the original creator of the cylons) replicated himself so much to the point where only his subconscious knows his actual identity.

I think quite possibly (based on what I mentioned here) it was actually his subconscious that was communicating with Six in that scene.

Dan Hunter

Is it true that in episode 14.2,subsegment 982,pre paragragh kwasar,Lord mowapyomom disintegrates frau klymen Hopper,s neeptroids?
Just wondering.
Klaxar RULES.

Sifu Jones

Well, at the end of the episode Starbuck says "I'm a Cylon". So, unless she's lying or has been brainwashed (neither option has much original story potential), she's a Cylon.

And yeah, the 2008 move is really stupid. People will lose interest in the almost nine months between now and then.

Andrew

"Why, exactly, was Baltar able to communicate with Six?" And why is Six/Caprica able to communicate with Baltar? We know there's no "chip" implant involved. This has yet to be explained.

"Is Kara the fifth Cylon? I'm not so sure." Neither am I. When she reached the end of the Eye of Jupiter vortex, she might have jumped/teleported away as her ship exploded. Maybe she met with the "seraphs" from the old series (are they those you call "the Others"?)--- Who knows? I don't know enough about the old series to apprehend this storyline.

"Recall D'anna (Lucy Lawless) saying "I'm sorry" when she saw the face of one of the final 5?" Didn't she say actually, "I'm sorry, I didn't know" meaning that she had already interracted with the cylon (or at least, one of the cylon's "clone"). Did D'anna ever interracted with Tigh, Anders or Chief? I don't remember. My bet is still with Baltar (a Baltar clone that is) being the mastermind behind the new, improved cylons. They need a "father" who actually conceived and created them! I can't really imagine the old robot models "evolving" by themselves...

John (supernova II)

JP II was a heretic!!!

I'm just trying to beat you-know-who to it.

Jonathan Prejean

The SciFi Channel just ordered another twenty episodes--BSG isn't going to be canceled.

Hate to rain on anyone's parade, but that is probably a good sign that this is the end of the road. There's something to be said for ending well anyway; look at Rome, which ended right where it should have. There's a fine line between going too short and too long, and there's only so much that can be done (Gene Branaman pretty much gave an exhaustive list above).

Ann Margaret Lewis

Anyone wanna speculate what's up with Caprica Six, Athena and the president?
--ann

Esau

Jonathan Prejean:

You're actually ALIVE!

Glad you logged back on!

Gene Branaman

"Well, at the end of the episode Starbuck says 'I'm a Cylon'."

She did? I did not hear that. Did anyone else? I heard her say "It's really me. I found earth & I'm going to lead you there." That's it. Does anyone else recall her saying this?

"Any definition of "what the Cylons were supposed to be" that includes Tigh and Starbuck seems to me to indicate that the Cylons' creators/evolvers were even stupider than I initially thought ;)"

LOL. True! But, how will they change now that they know? I find it interesting that Starbuck & Tigh were such heavy drinkers. What's at the root of their drinking? And yet, for all their faults & mistakes, they're selfless. As are Chief & Sam. Roslyn's assistant (what is her name, again?) I don't know enough about to say for sure.

If Kara's a Cylon, why the whole flashback to her mother? If she's a Cylon, did we need to know about her fake memories? Unless Cylons are far more integrated into human society than we knew. If she's a Cylon, then she's most definitely "fundamentally different". And Moore's meaning of that will be debated until 2008, I'm sure.

And that brings up this thought: Are there multiple copies of the final 5? Or, like Tigger, are they the only ones? If so, that would support them being there for a positive reason, IMO. It would also support some "higher power" influence, if you will, because Anders was from such a different background than the others. Is it mere coincidence that Kara found him when she went back to Caprica? Seems like a longshot to me.

As for BSG being derivative . . . well, so is the vast majority of SF these days, frankly! Not everyone can write on the level of Tim Powers & Gene Wolfe! Look at Heroes, for example. Anyone ever heard of B-5 creator JMS's Rising Stars? Is heroes derivative of that? Sure. But not necessarily negatively so. What I find most intriguing about BSG is how they use elements of the original series, elements of war dramas, & elements of various SF novels to create a compelling & unique show that feels real & plausible while also being able to make commentary on society today. Heck, Harry Potter's derivative but JKR really knows how to plot a ripping good series, even if there are whole subplots that could be jettisoned.

Two people can read/watch/hear the same work & one might consider it derivative of another work while the other might consider that other work to have been an influence on the author. Depends on one's POV.

Esau

As for BSG being derivative

I remember the first time it came out, I couldn't help but initially think that the Cylon 'slant' seemed a little all too familiar with the Terminator movies where, at first, they were robots and, then, they became robots that actually looked like us!

Gene Branaman

"Anyone wanna speculate what's up with Caprica Six, Athena and the president?"

I'd say it has something to do with the scriptural prophecies Rolsyn has been clinging to, Ann. As I said above, I can't recall all the prophecies that have been spoken of on the show. But it involved Hera specifically & the final 5 in some way. Which means Athena & Laura know of the final 5, if only through the vision.

How this relates to Tyrol's baby, will have to wait until 2008.

Frankly, this is the most enigmatic part of the season finale for me. And, yeah, I realize they wanted it to be that way!

"There's a fine line between going too short and too long, and there's only so much that can be done (Gene Branaman pretty much gave an exhaustive list above)."

Do yo mean I went on too long, Jonathan? ;)

Seriously, I agree. Ron Moore has even said he sees the show as having an ending point. And if he has the ending of the series in his head as a concrete event, then I think that means we'll have a really great season 4! That would mean a total of 75 episodes. That's about enough for any TV series, IMO!

Esau

What I find most intriguing about BSG is how they use elements of the original series, elements of war dramas, & elements of various SF novels to create a compelling & unique show that feels real & plausible while also being able to make commentary on society today.

Those, perhaps, are the only elements that distinguishes it -- it actually addresses controversial matters within the realm of its science fiction with those issues currently the hot topics of our day.

Esau

I'd say it has something to do with the scriptural prophecies Rolsyn has been clinging to, Ann.


That's what's become the popular theme in both BSG and Heroes: people getting high in order to obtain prophetic visions!

Both Rosalyn and the comic book guy/painter in heroes actually need to get high in order get their prophetic visions! Hilarious! (also unfortunate because of the message it might send to impressionable minds.)

Dave Lister

Is this the season finale that has Ace Rimmer returning with Kryten?

Giacinto

Eaasu,

Uhhh... Giacinto, did you see the Season Finale?

You might want to watch towards the very end of it where Starbuck actually 'resurfaced' and, in fact, divulged to Apollo that she had been to earth.

What I meant to convey was that in a couple of episodes back, he didn't see her ship destroyed. So she either could have survived, found earth, and come back or she could have died and respawned on a cylon ship. If the latter, then who knows her motives. If the former, I guess she could still be either a human or cylon.

Esau

Thanks for the clarification, Giacinto!

JohnH

I watched the end, and since it's become less space soap opera I'll probably watch season 4.

Fr Alvin Kimel

I suppose it's possible that Kara is the 5th Cylon, but I really doubt it. It's too obvious that she should be one. I think they'll want to surprise us.

Clearly the "final five" cylons are earlier cylon models. They've been around for a good while.

Regarding DAnna and her apology to one of the final five, my guess is that she saw Colonel Tighe. After I saw Sunday's episode, I told my wife that the "four" were mistaken about being cylons, but then I read Moore's interview, where he confirmed that they are indeed cylons but of a different kind. It's all very interesting. I can't wait to see what they are cooking up for us.

I have to admit that I have been disappointed with the show this season. Developments with Kara and Apollo and Apollo and Adama have felt artificiallly forced. Not enough groundwork was laid to explain all the stuff that happened to them in the last four or five episodes. This season has "felt" unimaginative, as if the writers had run out of good material and were just rehashing old stuff.

But I'll be there in 2008 for the new season!

Jonathan Prejean

Do yo mean I went on too long, Jonathan?

Like a good series, you were just right. :-)

Esau

JP II was a heretic!!!

I'm just trying to beat you-know-who to it.

Posted by: John (supernova II) | Mar 27, 2007 1:08:58 PM


Whoever is doing this, I think it's actually working!

No posts from John here or on the other recent piece from Jimmy! =^)

Gene Branaman

"Both Rosalyn and the comic book guy/painter in heroes actually need to get high in order get their prophetic visions! Hilarious! (also unfortunate because of the message it might send to impressionable minds.)"

Heroes had to go 'cos of Lent (I limit my TV these days) but, as I recall, the painter guy cleaned up. And it was made clear during Baltar's trial that the camala extract Laura is using in her tea accentuates the visions, but does not cause them. Am I remembering correctly?

And I'm with you Fr Alvin! I think it was Tigh that D'anna saw because of the torture he suffered at on New Caprica. And I think the final 5 have been around a while, too. But . . . did they grow up or were they given "memories"? If they grew up, then Kara's mother's behavior is explained, to a point. Interesting.

BSGer

What Kara says (verbatim, from iTunes download) is:

STARBUCK: Hi, Lee.

APOLLO: Kara?!

STARBUCK: Don't freak out, it really is me. (Chuckles). It's gonna be okay.

Apollo looks confused.

STARBUCK: I've been to earth. I know where it is. And I'm gonna take us there.

Establishing shot of the two vipers in the nebula. Galactic-scale pull back then tilt and push in to the globular cluster next door, in which lies EARTH, where it is morning in North America and the Pacific Ocean in darkness (so we can't see if ther are any lights on the continents and get a clue about historical era).

END.

Esau

... did they grow up or were they given "memories"?

Yet again, 'derivative'?


I mean, wasn't there humanoid robots in another sci-fi storyline also given 'memories' in order to mimic human qualities?

Andrew

There are some minor *spoilers* and Season 4 news (courtesy of BG producer Ron Moore) over at Dark Horizons for those interested. Kara's identity is discussed.

Ed Pie

A thought just came to me.

Are they perhaps putting BSG on hold for several extra months so the Sci Fi Channel can focus (at least in terms of resources and ratings) on wrapping up SG-1 with its two movies, and getting the third Stargate series off the ground? I've been telling myself for the past few days "Well, at least I can watch Stargate instead," but it just occured to me that it might not be a coincidence.

Esau

Are they perhaps putting BSG on hold for several extra months so the Sci Fi Channel can focus (at least in terms of resources and ratings) on wrapping up SG-1 with its two movies, and getting the third Stargate series off the ground?

Nah --

It's something that the networks have been doing lately.

I guess they figure having a kind of moratorium like that might create some suspense for the viewers.

There's also the reason (at least, why they did it for some popular shows on the networks) so that they don't show re-runs but purely new episodes each time.

Ed Pie

Good point.
Then there's that TV movie cited in Jimmy's newer post, too. Oh well. Not like I won't enjoy Stargate in the interim, anyway.

Sifu Jones

Oops. Sorry all; I had that Starbuck part wrong.

I'm hearing things.

Maybe I'm a Cylon . . .

Nemo

"Either way, I doubt I'll bother with the show again. I've been watching Stargate SG-1 on DVD and have found it to be a much more interesting program."

Sure it's better - if you don't mind utterly formulaic writing, reset buttons, a mythology arc that ran out of steam a long time ago and is being made up as the writers go along now, cheesy dialogue, and poor special effects.

Don't get me wrong. I've seen every single episode of SG-1 and I have enjoyed it in the past. Its one saving grace is its quirky, irreverent sense of humor. But its flaws and limitations have always been front and center.

Even on its worst day (and it has had some weak ones this season, to be sure) BSG is a far superior product to Stargate, or to nearly everything else on TV right now.

"I'm much more of a Voyager man than BSG. Who's with me?"

You're pulling our legs, right?

derringdo

Gene: good thoughts in response to my rather flippant response :)

Esau: If you think either the "people getting high in connection with visions" thing or the "android thinks they're human" thing or the "machines/nonhuman creatures start taking human form" thing, is derivative of only one or two works, you really need to watch and read more of this stuff. There's a difference between "derivative" and "common tropes of the genre." Shakespeare didn't exactly invent crossdressing or ghosts relaying important info to the living, ok? :)

Esau

... is derivative of only one or two works...

Actually, I could cite more than just these and, in fact, some that have even more relevance than the trivial ones I've spouted, which only remotely relates to BSG.

However, it would've ended up as a litany of useless trivia, nothing more. =^)

Esau

Sure it's better - if you don't mind utterly formulaic writing, reset buttons, a mythology arc that ran out of steam a long time ago and is being made up as the writers go along now, cheesy dialogue, and poor special effects.


A-MEN!

That show should've died a long time ago!

They've recycled storylines too many times to even recall.

Gene Branaman

Sifu . . . are you a "good" Cylon or a "bad" Cylon?

;)

derringdo

Esau: true, but if that's the case, there's not much point in complaining about it being "derivative" of other stuff in terms of story points-the question becomes whether it does anything interesting or distinctive with them. The idea that BSG doesn't do anything interesting or distinctive with them is certainly a defensible proposition, but it's different from being merely "derivative", a relatively modern (and very lame) concept when it comes to arts and entertainment. :)

Esau

derringdo,

The fact of the matter is that if it weren't for the fact that BSG had creatively incorporated within the context of its storylines pressing matters as the hot topics of our day, it wouldn't stand up all its own since its very framework is comprised of certain recycled elements garnered from other sci-fi stories.

For example, the extract Rosalyn uses can be fundamentally described as the 'spice' which also produced prophetic visions in another popular sci-fi story; the only difference is the 'blue eyes'.

I can recall several instances where shows purposely recycled the same storylines from not only sci-fi novels but other shows as well.

I provided an example some months back where there was actually a "Groundhog Day" storyline that was recycled in both SG-1 as well as in Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Another one I could cite are episodes from both Star Trek: Enterprise as well as in the short-lived show Crusade:

The Enterprise episode 'The Crossing' was exactly the same storyline from the Crusade episode 'Appearances and Other Deceits' where the crew was invaded by alien beings that took possession of their corporeal bodies.

(Incidentally, I didn't really watch either of those series, but happened upon those episodes during the moments they actually aired when they were doing re-runs on both Sci-Fi and an affiliate.)

Maureen

Of course Kara could survive deep space and explosions. Kara is Supergirl's secret identity.

Gene Branaman

Maureen wins!

Richard

I can recall several instances where shows purposely recycled the same storylines from not only sci-fi novels but other shows as well.

I provided an example some months back where there was actually a "Groundhog Day" storyline that was recycled in both SG-1 as well as in Star Trek: The Next Generation.

And that ended up being one of the very best Stargate episodes. Stargate is at its best when it winks at you - when it doesn't take itself too seriously. Richard Dean Anderson has limited range which vitiates any dramatic scene he's asked to carry, but works for the dry humor which characterizes the best of Stargate. Ben Browder has limited range that unfortunately doesn't work well for either.

But derringdo is right that there's not much original anymore in sci-fi. Battlestar Galactica itself is after all just a re-imagining of a 1978 series, which itself was a hodgepodge of Mormon, Greek and other myths set in space.

Ultimately sci-fi has to pass the same acid test of any other form of dramatic entertainment: does it develop compelling characters to tell interesting and convincing human stories? In this regard BSG succeeds far beyond virtually anything in the Star Trek canon, for example. It's not just that it's believable in terms of the daily struggle for survival (where does the water and food come from? The fuel? How do they replace lost personnel and equipment? - questions Voyager never bothered to ask, as Moore noted after leaving as writer for that show) but how personalities react to those stresses. And the risks the writers are willing to take in showing that.

As a fan of the original series, I hated the entire idea of Moore's re-imagining. I boycotted the mini-series and the entire first season. Then I watched, by accident, the first episode of Season 2 - and I was hooked. It blows the original away.

I just hope they don't drag it out too long. At some point there has to be a payoff. 22 episodes should be enough to reach a conclusion.

Esau

Richard,


I mentioned:

I can recall several instances where shows purposely recycled the same storylines from not only sci-fi novels but other shows as well.

I provided an example some months back where there was actually a "Groundhog Day" storyline that was recycled in both SG-1 as well as in Star Trek: The Next Generation.

because of the fact that this recycling of storylines have made today's brand of sci-fi quite tiring and boring (i.e., 'been there, done that'), to say the least.

SteveL

There was a Voyager episdoe where a Q wanted to kill himself. He took Janeway to Q land and showed them how bored they were since they had already done everything. Perhaps we are getting there with TV and movies. There just isn't much more to tell. Please don't go kill yourselves!

Esau

There was a Voyager episdoe where a Q wanted to kill himself. He took Janeway to Q land and showed them how bored they were since they had already done everything. Perhaps we are getting there with TV and movies. There just isn't much more to tell.

SteveL:

That's just it -- everything these days are but a recycling of other works.

For example, in the movie industry, if they're not remaking an old film (e.g., 300 Spartans, Alfie, Alexander, etc.), they're remaking something from abroad (e.g., The Grudge, Premonition, The Ring, etc.).

It appears there's not one creative spark left in America's Entertainment industry.

The only solace we have is perhaps classic literature.

Even books nowadays are more of the supermarket check-out brand.

Magdelaine

I have found this series to be one of the most compelling things I have ever seen on television. However, they just about lost me with the Season 2 finale/Season 3 premiere that had the fleet split up and partially grounded. I felt totally cheated by that lame development, and thought it only barely recovered when the RTF made it back into space.

That being said, I think that the reveal of four of the Final Five was just silly and clearly not planned from the beginning. I mean, why did they all assume, when they saw each other, that they were Cylons?? It was one of those caveats that revealed the deus ex machina, and it still doesn't sit right with me. And, I'm sorry, it would blow Tighe's mind to even contemplate being a Cylon; it is NOT a suggestion he would just accept because he happened to hear a Jimi Hendrix song that wasn't really playing.

(sigh)

It's just that I love so many other aspects of this show that I really feel the fumbles.

The Starbuck storyline, so far, has NOT been a stumble. Starbuck may well be a Cylon or (get this!) the real first human/Cylon hybrid. (Her mom was in the first Cylon war, right?) I doubt she is merely human.

And, hooray!: first really plausible explanation for Baltar's weirdness is the one made above. He is the human creator of the humanish Cylons who now exists in a Cylon body, but doesn't consciously know this. Hmmm, a very interesting suggestion. Oh well, I'm looking forward to 08 in spite of myself!.

Gene Branaman

"I mean, why did they all assume, when they saw each other, that they were Cylons??"

This has yet to be explained. I assume a *switch* was flipped & they just . . . know. This has precedence in the series with Athena as well as elsewhere in SF. Another SF convention for Esau! (And, Esau, I do think you're confusing storytelling convention with derivation.)

"It was one of those caveats that revealed the deus ex machina, and it still doesn't sit right with me."

All cliff-hangers have that feeling, though, don't they? They are purposefully manipulative (& not necessarily in a bad way - that's what drama does) to get us to come back so see what's really going on. We're only getting one POV in that scene with Chief, Tighe, Sam, & Tori. We're a fly on the wall, not in their heads. This supports my view that, in light of Moore's admission that the final 5 are "fundamentally different" from the previous Cylons we've seen, they are *protectors* of the human race in some way & have only now been awakened to that purpose. It will remain to be seen if that's the case - as has been pointed out above, some behavior will have to change. I expect we'll see a very different Tighe in season 4 - no more drinking.

"And, I'm sorry, it would blow Tighe's mind to even contemplate being a Cylon; it is NOT a suggestion he would just accept because he happened to hear a Jimi Hendrix song that wasn't really playing."

That's a Bob Dylan song ;) & I think his acceptance of it (though not without a fight, as was seen in that scene) shows that there was a *switch* turned on & he just knows it to be true - just at Tyrol did when he said it; they all do. The look shared between Tighe & Tori on the Galactica bridge is part of the cliff-hanger manipulation to get us to question if they're like the Cylons of old or if they're, for lack of a better word, heretics. But I think it's quite telling that all 4 seemed to be dedicated to support of the human race & got right back to their jobs. The truth remains to be seen.

Frankly, I think there's quite a lot of tension in that & quite a number of stories that could play out very effectively. Again, I think season 3 had a ton of character development that we'll see pay-offs for in season 4.

Oh . . . Kara is not a Cylon. I'm callin' it now! I'm convinced. She's not #5 of the final 5. You can quote me! ;) (And she's just to gosh-darned cute!)

Esau

(And, Esau, I do think you're confusing storytelling convention with derivation.)

It's not STORYTELLING, it's DERIVATION!

Again, as pointed out in some of my examples earlier:


I provided an example some months back where there was actually a "Groundhog Day" storyline that was recycled in both SG-1 as well as in Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Another one I could cite are episodes from both Star Trek: Enterprise as well as in the short-lived show Crusade:

The Enterprise episode 'The Crossing' was exactly the same storyline from the Crusade episode 'Appearances and Other Deceits' where the crew was invaded by alien beings that took possession of their corporeal bodies.

Smoky Mountain Hiker

That's just it -- everything these days are but a recycling of other works

I agree for the most part. Though I think Lost is a highly original and still extremely engaging show.

Even books nowadays are more of the supermarket check-out brand.

I suspect there have always been such books; and there *are* quality novels still being written. It's just harder to find quality modern novels than quality classic novels because the trash from the past is out of print and no one is reprinting it. In 50-100 years, the "classics" that are now being written will be easy to find in bookstores!

Esau

Smoky,

In contrast to the past though, what makes it even more difficult to find a decent novel is the fact that these days, practically any idiot, no matter how assinine or moronic, is able to get him/herself published!

Practically almost anything can be published these days, even if its contents generally amounts to nothing but trash, so long as it sells and the public eats it up (all with the help of hyped-up marketing, of course, with a hint of controversy)!

Esau

... Thus, inundating the shelves of modern-day bookstores to the point where only less than 1% of what they sell is actually worth reading!

Richard

Hello Esau:

"I mentioned that...because of the fact that this recycling of storylines have made today's brand of sci-fi quite tiring and boring (i.e., 'been there, done that'), to say the least."

Oh - I know you did.

I was just pointing out the irony that one of SG-1's most blatant recyclings actually ended up making for one of its best episodes (judging by fan voting on marathon choices, too) - mainly because it was spoofing the genre (and itself) more than anything else.

Esau

THE HUMAN CYLONS ARE HERE!

Robot 'gives birth'

Ry

Recall D'anna (Lucy Lawless) saying "I'm sorry" when she saw the face of one of the final 5? Which one was it? What is she sorry for?

I think it was in season 2, BEFORE Anders had been rescued off of the original Caprica, there was an episode in which he was leading his little group of resistance warriors to blow up Cylons just to make their lives miserable.

He planted a bomb in a cafe that buried Caprica Six, Boomer and D'Anna under some ruble. For some reason, Anders was unable to get away before the bomb went off and the three Cylon women found them. D'Anna was about to kill him (by crushing his head with a rock, if I remember aright), but Caprica Six and Boomer killed her first and helped Anders escape.

Thus, I think D'Anna saw Anders in her vision and was apologizing for nearly crushing his head with a rock.

Esau

This just in:

BATTLESTAR GALACTICA HAS BEEN CANCELLED!

Chris

Just saw the series 3 finale last night and loved it - although one thing is bothering me: didn't all personnel take Baltars 'Let's see if you're a Cylon' test back in Series 1? And didn't they all pass? Or am I missing something somewhere? Either way, I'm really looking forward to series 4!

Esau

...didn't all personnel take Baltars 'Let's see if you're a Cylon' test back in Series 1?

Wasn't that 'Let's see if you're a Cylon' test fake?

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