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« Specific Confessions | Main | The Declericalization of the Global South »

March 22, 2007

Comments

Esau

The new position is not provost but a triple position of theologian-in-residence, being a member of the theology faculty, and also head of the university's abroad program.

Still a step down =^(

Ruthann

Well THIS is certainly an interesting turn of events! I sure would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during that meeting.

'thann

Don

Tom Monaghan : AMU :: George Steinbrenner : The Yankees
I guess that makes Fr. Fessio Billy Martin.

inhocsig

You mess with a bull, you get the horns.

Monaghan messed with a Papal one!

Esau

You mess with 'Fess', you'll die like the rest!

Don

Another example of the power of the blogosphere.

JD

Don,

how, exactly?

JD, the news of Fr. Fessio's firing was spread all over the Catholic weblogs and news websites, and in those venues the disapproval of what Monaghan and Healy had done was loud and strong. Folks expressed their opinion that it looks like AMU is doomed, and/or said they would no longer support AMU and wouldn't think of sending their kids there.

Add that to the on-campus opposition and public student protests, and it's not surprising that Monaghan and Healy would immediately race to try to undo the damage they'd inflicted on themselves (while still saving face by not giving him his old job back).

Whether this will be enough remains to be seen, because this latest episode is actually one more log on the fire that now threatens to become an inferno that will consume the entire endeavor.

Joy Schoenberger

From what I've read, it sounds as if Fessio was an excellent theologian and educator, just not a very good college administrator, considering all of the practical financial responsibilities involved. It sounds like he's a better fit for his new role.

Jim

Clearly this is not enough to undo the major damage these people have done to themselves. In fact it just holds the administration up to further ridicule. The only way that AMU can recover from this is for the board to remove Monaghan and Healy from day-to-day operations and put Fessio in at the top. That's the only way to get a positive outcome from all this.

Pauli

"....Fessio was an excellent theologian and educator, just not a very good college administrator...."

This was true of Fulton Sheen also who supposedly ran his diocese into the red while being a great Bishop in his teaching role.

mr

I wonder how much of this is financial! I and others I know who are considered "founders" (just means you let them take money monthly out fo your checking ccount!)immediately emailed AMU that we were ending our support specifically due to the firing.

A.Williams

The problem I have with this whole episode has nothing to do with firing or hiring, but rather with the method in which this occured. I have had many employees in my life, but NEVER, could I give one of them a single day.."immediately"..to pack up and go!

Really, not only is this not Christian, but it's not even human! Unless Fr. Fessio committed some heinous crime, involving police investigations etc.. this is completely 'over the top'! Especially considering the obviously HUGE media spectacle it was bound to create!

Christ and the Holy Church teaches that that we are to love and respect those we don't agree with. We are to treat them with charity and regard their person. We are to do unto other's what we would have them do unto us!

What kind of hypocrisy is going on at this so-called Catholic School? I don't even think Donald Trump has been 'so low' as to force someone to 'vacate' their offices on the very same day that they are notified...immediately!? So, it is certainly an act of humility on the part of Fr. Fessio to accept the new jobs offered to him by AMU after such an insult!

If someone, or some group, running AMU need to learn something, it's the lesson that charity and courtesy needs to be applied and demontrated to all! This is what it means to LIVE Catholic and not just study it!

The AMU management should be forced to add a new major to their curriculum, and each manager responsible for this 'hoopla' forced to get a degree in it... they can call it "Common Courtesy and Business Etiquette 101"!

JD

Don and Anon,

I know it ripped through the Catholic blogosphere--I just think its pretty premature to assume that was in a way causative of what happened. They correlate, but correlation does not equal causation.

Jordan Potter

"I just think its pretty premature to assume that was in a way causative of what happened."

I don't. The commentary on the weblogs was a big part of the public outcry that would inevitably result from so lamebrained and cruel an act as this, and it's unreasonable to doubt that the outcry had nothing to do with their quick partial about-face.

With the gracious, humble and charitable way that he handled this affront, Fr. Fessio comes out of this looking better than ever. Unfortunately Monaghan, Healy, and AMU have suffered a major hit.

Lastly, I'm the guy who wrote that anonymous post timestamped "Mar 23, 2007 5:04:13 AM." This is the second time in as many days that one of my posts has shown up on the weblog without my name and email address. I don't know what's going on with that.

Mark

Reportedly, Fr. Fessio was asked to resign. He refused. Not only did he refuse a dignified exit, he apparently called students "weeping" and created a soap opera. So much for Jesuits and obedience ...

SDG

Reportedly, Fr. Fessio was asked to resign. He refused. Not only did he refuse a dignified exit, he apparently called students "weeping" and created a soap opera. So much for Jesuits and obedience ...

"Obedience"? I didn't realize Fr. Fessio's religious superiors had ordered him to leave.

I don't think "refusing a dignified exit" or even "creating a soap opera" is a sin, or even a scandal. I don't think we know enough about the circumstances to assign blame.

Esau

Reportedly, Fr. Fessio was asked to resign. He refused. Not only did he refuse a dignified exit, he apparently called students "weeping" and created a soap opera. So much for Jesuits and obedience ...

WOW!

I guess that this must be the TRUTH then!

Too bad this nasty habit of mine requiring CONCRETE EVIDENCE and NOT merely hearsay...

Alex Benziger.G

Sir,
Till 1970 many Jesuits appointed as Bishops of the Catholic Church. The liberation theology and inter religious dialog introduced into the Jesuits Society, the Society has been lost its credentials, its value and its domination into the Catholic Church.

Esau

the Society has been lost its credentials, its value and its domination into the Catholic Church.

Uhhh... Mr. Benziger, I hate to disappoint you, but there was actually a time in Church History when Jesuits were actually considered 'heretics'.

I remembered a moment when this was, in fact, mentioned to Fr. Pacwa at an EWTN program and he simply smiled.

(Fr. Pacwa -- That guy is SO awesome though!)

Jordan Potter

"Reportedly, Fr. Fessio was asked to resign. He refused. Not only did he refuse a dignified exit, he apparently called students 'weeping' and created a soap opera."

First time anyone's heard any such thing. What proof do you have that this happened, Mark? After they demanded his resignation, he resigned, and he then sent the students a very short email message announcing that he had resigned after he'd been asked to do so. That email is posted online. I don't know where you got your information about him calling students weeping. Perhaps you can fill us in on that?

Mac

At least with Father Fessio back at AMU we can count of truthful Catholicism being taught -- at least if the Pizza man leaves him alone:)

Mark

http://www.spiritdaily.com/fessioletter.htm

"Just a few hours ago, I spoke with a friend who is a student there, who had just spoken with Fr. Fessio himself minutes before.

"In tears, he explained that the university had asked him to resign, he refused, and they were 'firing' him. He said that he was asked to pack his bags and leave immediately. He needed to cancel some appointments and figure out where he was going to stay for the night.

"Obviously, as I'm sure you have been hearing, this has created quite a stir locally. Our local news just covered the story showing students protesting, and demanding to know why this has happened other than the 'irreconcilable differences' justification given.

Mac

At least with Father Fessio back at AMU we can count of truthful Catholicism being taught -- at least if the Pizza man leaves him alone:)

Esau

Oh yeah, Mark, I can see where your statement:

"Reportedly, Fr. Fessio was asked to resign. He refused. Not only did he refuse a dignified exit, he apparently called students 'weeping' and created a soap opera."

was SO TRUTHFUL given the above! NOT!

Esau

Mark:

When you made the slanderous statement "Not only did he refuse a dignified exit", was that because it was actually the case or was it because he failed to leave the premises in 30 minutes or less?

Mark

Canonically, Monaghan was not Fr. Fessio's superior, but he was his boss. The virtue of obedience (if not the ecclesiastical oath) would seem to suggest that Fr. would have taken the "graceful" exit when it was offered.

When an employee is "fired" I don't think an immediate exit from the premises is unprecidented. Presumably, Fr. Fessio had access to donor lists and other sensitive information.

I'm not sure who the real prima donna is here, Fessio or Monaghan ...

Mark

Esau,

The dignified exit would have been to resign when he was asked to do so by his boss.

Esau

Mark:

What I have trouble with is how you phrased your comment.

Of course, for all we know, you may very well be correct in your statement; however, we've yet to uncover the facts.

The only ones who are really "in the know" are those who were actually there witnessing the events as they unfolded.

Mind you, anybody can bend the lense to suit their truth on the matter.

(By the way, the '30 minutes or less' phrase was a poor attempt at an inside joke on Dominos.)

Juli

Mark,

Evidently he felt strongly about NOT resigning when asked to, for whatever reasons. Office politics being what they are, who knows what really happened.

And, I doubt that he would have gotten his 3-in-1 new position had he resigned.

If I had to make a choice before knowing any facts, I would stand with him before a corporate guy, regardless of how Catholic Monaghan is. I've worked way too long in corporate America.

SDG

Canonically, Monaghan was not Fr. Fessio's superior, but he was his boss. The virtue of obedience (if not the ecclesiastical oath) would seem to suggest that Fr. would have taken the "graceful" exit when it was offered.

I disagree. Virtue doesn't necessarily impel one to fall on one's sword at the boss's behest. Depending on circumstances, a "less graceful" choice may be the more prudent or reasonable one.

I'm not sure who the real prima donna is here, Fessio or Monaghan ...

If you're "not sure," why do you seem to be assuming Fessio bears the onus of guilt?

Jordan Potter

"When an employee is 'fired' I don't think an immediate exit from the premises is unprecidented."

In academia, when an official or teacher is fired and told to vacate the premises the same day, it's because they broke the law or did something like commit a sexual offense with a student.

That's what Monaghan did to Fr. Fessio. But note how graciously he responded with the way they shamed him.

Jordan Potter

But thank you for providing the source of your information. It does back up what you said, even though it fails to support your uncharitable interpretation of it against Fr. Fessio.

Jim

" an employee is "fired" I don't think an immediate exit from the premises is unprecidented. Presumably, Fr. Fessio had access to donor lists and other sensitive information."

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if AMU violated Florida law by kicking him out of his place of residence (he lives on campus) with a few hours notice. Tenant's rights, anybody?

Mark

Here's another article which suggests Fr. Fessio has a very healthy self-image:

Former Ave Maria provost: 'I think it was a mistake to fire me'

http:www.naplesnews.com/news/2007/mar/22/former_ave_maria_provost_i_think_it_was_mistake_fi/%3Flatest&cid=1114664392

Jordan Potter

Whatever, Mark.

A.Williams

..At least He's HONEST!! :)

Mark

JP says,

"But note how graciously he responded with the way they shamed him."

Graciously? The students are in an uproad and now have a unholy mistrust of the University Administration. All because Fr. Fessio believes he is "bigger" than the instutuion.

The students are in an uproad and now have a unholy mistrust of the University Administration.

Good. They should. The University Administration is beholden to an eccentric (some would say megalomaniacal) super-rich guy.

All because Fr. Fessio believes he is "bigger" than the instutuion.

Nope. Because he wasn't willing to falsely confess to seducing co-eds, waterboarding students who were late for classes, or clubbing baby seals in order to cover up the Administration's gross idiocy. If I were him I would have not been nearly as gracious as he was.

Esau

Nope. Because he wasn't willing to falsely confess to seducing co-eds, waterboarding students who were late for classes, or clubbing baby seals in order to cover up the Administration's gross idiocy. If I were him I would have not been nearly as gracious as he was.


hehehe... first time anon with NO NAME said something remotely 'acceptable'!

(of course, the jury is still out on what he mentioned on the other thread and so I can't really say this is the only comment he's made so far that's 'remotely acceptable')

Jordan Potter

"Graciously? The students are in an uproad and now have a unholy mistrust of the University Administration."

How is that Fr. Fessio's fault? That was caused by his being fired without any clear explanation and being told to immediately leave the campus. I guess you could pin the blame on him for not just going away secretly and refusing to talk about his firing, just as you blame him for having the audacity to disagree with his being fired and for shedding tears about it.

Mark, I just don't know what planet you live on, or what planet you're from.

Esau

Mark, I just don't know what planet you live on, or what planet you're from.

Mark's planet

Mark

Fr. Fessio is free to disagree with his dismissal and (presumably)shed tears about it. But to incite a riot among a group of young, easily manipulated students was undignified and unseemly.

It would have been far easier if he simply accepted the judgement of Mr. Monaghan, his employer, that he was not the best person for the provost position, and went on his way.

It has even been suggested that Fr. Fessio "pulled rank" by taking his case to his mentor, the Holy Father:

"Do'es bad boys made me wev da sandbox!"

Esau

But to incite a riot among a group of young, easily manipulated students was undignified and unseemly.

How can you actually claim that he INCITED a riot?

Esau

That's like saying KOBE BRYANT was actually the one who incited the riots in Los Angeles that one time after a LAKERS game!

Mark

Esau, are you smoking crack?!

Jim

"But to incite a riot among a group of young, easily manipulated students was undignified and unseemly."

Good grief! He sent out a 2-line email, as is customary (on my planet) when somebody is leaving. He talked to people who came knocking on his door. Riot? RIOT??? Because students (a reported 80% of whom support him) objected?

Where's the blame on the incredibly inept administrators who dismissed the most popular and influential figure on campus, gave him hours to pack up and leave, gave nobody any reason for it, did all this while school was in session and students were on campus, and then backpedalled 24 hours later when the OBVIOUS repercussions actually repercussed?

Esau

Esau, are you smoking crack?!

Are you?

Because the only CRACK I'm seeing is the one in your LOGIC!

"But to incite a riot among a group of young, easily manipulated students was undignified and unseemly."

bill912

Riot? Were there people hurt or property destroyed on campus that I haven't heard about?

Jordan Potter

What are talking about, Mark? "Incited a riot"??? There was no riot. There were meetings, and students calling for his reinstatement, and tears, and prayers. That's a riot, eh?

As for the rumor that he may have called the Holy Father, he has been quoted denying that and saying he didn't think the Holy Father had even heard of his firing.

You evidently want very badly to believe that Fr. Fessio was solely, or mostly, at fault in this matter. I don't know why you want to believe that, and there's no reason to believe that either.

Esau

Mark,

ConFessi-o that you don't like Fessi-o!

Joann

Hello! As the parent of one of the "young, easily manipulated students" I really must strenuosly object to the use of the term "riot" in regards to said "young, easily manipulated students."
The "riot," and I use the term with a bucket of salt, consisted of students gathering to PRAY the ROSARY in front of the admin building. At a later meeting, the students requested answers which were not forthcoming from the administration.
Some of the students were pretty intense according to my child but "riot???"
Oh, puh-leeze.
Does this situation really need more drama???

Yesty-Day

Mark,

You said that you don't know who the bigger prima donna is. reading your posts, one can safely guess to which of the two you are giving the benefit of the doubt.

Question: do you read New Oxford Review(aka, the magazine that think's it is better/holier than the Pope and Fr. Fessio) ?

Esau

Mark,

From the various responses here, your INCITING a RIOT on this BLOG was undignified and unseemly!

 Kathryn

REFEREE PLEASE!!!!!

John

Maybe Moynihan took the time to read Father Fessio publishing of DeLubac, who was suspected of heresy before Vatican II, but then somehow along with Karl Rahner, became one of the chief periti's and Theologians (With Rahner and DeLubac, how can one expect anything but a disaster?)

In De Lubac's The Mystery of the Supernatural he tries to reteach the the grace-nature of St Thomas, and that there is in reality no such thing as "pure nature".

It took Pope Pius XII's encyclical Humani Generis to clear things up and then De Lubac was asked by his Jesuit superiors to stop teaching and to give up his research as he was trying to undermine the doctrine of the gratuity of grace.

Then one reads Pope Pius X Encyclical Pascendi where he teaches:

Therefore, as God is the object of religion, we must conclude that faith, which is the basis and foundation of all religion, must consist in a certain interior sense, originating in a need of the divine. This need of the divine, which is experienced only in special and favourable circumstances, cannot of itself appertain to the domain of consciousness, but is first latent beneath consciousness… this sense possesses, implied within itself both as its own object and as its intrinsic cause, the divine reality itself, and in a way unites man with God. It is this sense to which Modernists give the name of faith, and this is what they hold to be the beginning of religion.

Then some 50 years later, Henri de Lubac teaches in a clear contradiction:

…the idea of God is mysteriously present in us from the beginning, prior to our concepts, although beyond our grasp without their help, and prior to all our argumentation, in spite of being logically unjustifiable without them; it is the inspiration, the motive power and justification of them all….

In its primary and permanent state the idea of God is not, then, a product of the intelligence. It is not a concept. It is a reality: the very soul of the soul; a spiritual image of the Divinity, an ‘eikon’.

Mark

"At a later meeting, the students requested answers which were not forthcoming from the administration."

Jim,

You're the expert on Florida law. What are the legal implications of an employer discussing a firing with the media or even the students and faculty of AMU? Was Monaghan really at liberty to explain why Fr. Fessio was fired? If he thought Fr. Fessio was doing a poor job as Provost (perhaps engaging in liturgical wars on campus or publicly siding with a baptist seminary rector who suggests "gay" embryos should be genetically altered) is he not within his rights to fire him?

Of course, Fessio is untouchable because he's a Ratzinger protoge and celebrates the NO ad orentam. Be careful how you pick your heroes. I remember when Cardinal Law was the darling of starch-shirt conservatives too.

Jordan Potter

"Of course, Fessio is untouchable because he's a Ratzinger protoge and celebrates the NO ad orentam."

Translation: "I have failed to provide any legitimate reason for my claims and insinuations that Fr. Fessio was at fault for disliking the way he was treated and shedding tears, so I will portray those who have called me on it as Fessio groupies."

As for your question about Florida employment law, I wonder how that would apply to someone like Fr. Fessio, whose position as Provost was, if I'm not mistaken, volunteer and unpaid.

"publicly siding with a baptist seminary rector who suggests 'gay' embryos should be genetically altered"

Well, you've gotten almost everything else wrong about this story, so you may as well get that wrong too . . . .

Oh, and John, who the heck is Moynihan and what did he have to do with Fr. Fessio's forced resignation? Please take your Symphony Of A Single Note somewhere else -- it got pretty stale and lifeless a loooooong time ago.

Mark

"You said that you don't know who the bigger prima donna is. reading your posts, one can safely guess to which of the two you are giving the benefit of the doubt."

Here's what we know about how Mr. Monaghan:

For reasons he cannot reveal publicly, he asks Fr. Fessio to step down as Provost. After Fessio refuses he terminates him and asks him to leave campus immediately.
After the students revolt, he rehires Fessio to a non-administrative teaching position.

Here's what we know about how Fr. Fessio:

For reasons which were not publicly revealed (but may include engaging in liturgical wars on campus and making stupid statements about "gay" embryos) he is asked to resign. He refuses and forces the Founder to fire him. Instead of leaving peacefully he informs students he was "wrongfully" terminated, informs the press "I wouldn't fire me" and calls the Vatican so that pressure may be applied to "give me back my University".

And you wonder why I'm choosing Mr. Monaghan as my primma donna?

Franklin Jennings

"For reasons which were not publicly revealed (but may include engaging in liturgical wars on campus and making stupid statements about "gay" embryos) he is asked to resign."

Here's what we know about Mark: For reasons which were not publically revealed (but may include Monaghan's possession of evidence of him kicking puppies or robbing elderly people of their Social Security checks)he has made outright false statements about Fr. Fessio inciting a riot among the students of AMU.

That's the great thing about parentheses, I suppose.

Mark

Jordan says,

"Well, you've gotten almost everything else wrong about this story, so you may as well get that wrong too . . . ."

Are you required to back up your statement with any logic or facts or are you speaking ex cathedra? I thought only the Holy Father gets to do that? What facts have I gotten wrong?

http://calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=396dd44d-4e84-4a59-b60f-680cd64e9e6c

Fessio said. "If there are ways of detecting diseases or disorders of children in the womb, and a way of treating them that respected the dignity of the child and mother, it would be a wonderful advancement of science."

Franklin Jennings

And what on earth is stupid about the statement you quote?

Franklin Jennings

"and calls the Vatican so that pressure may be applied to "give me back my University"."

You say we KNOW this, but you offer no evidence. With that standard in mind, we also know you deliberately trip blind people walking on public sidewalks.

Mark

Franklin,

I've already sourced one student account of how Fr. Fessio unprofessionally tried to victimize himself:

http://www.spiritdaily.com/fessioletter.htm

"Just a few hours ago, I spoke with a friend who is a student there, who had just spoken with Fr. Fessio himself minutes before.

"In tears, he explained that the university had asked him to resign, he refused, and they were 'firing' him. He said that he was asked to pack his bags and leave immediately. He needed to cancel some appointments and figure out where he was going to stay for the night."

bill912

Still waiting for the explanation of the "riot" in which, so far as is known, no one was hurt and no property was destroyed.

bill912

That's an attempt "to victimize himself"?

Mark

Franklin,

Here's one source for the story that Fessio or one of his groupies called the Vatican:

http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2007/03/fessio-great-burden-lifted.html

"and speaking of the latter, allies of his pupil communicated the developments to the Holy See shortly after learning of them.

"I wouldn't be surprised if the Holy Father knew [what happened] before going to bed tonight," one said."

Poor guy, lots of followers but nowhere to lay his head for the night ...

Franklin Jennings

I asked for evidence that he called the Vatican, not that he attempted to "victimize himself" (whatever that means.)

I can't imagine how you can write in a language you aren't capable of reading.

Franklin Jennings

You STILL haven't posted evidence that Fessio called the Vatican. You haven't even cited hearsay reports of such.

Franklin Jennings

You posted this:

"Here's what we know about how Fr. Fessio:

For reasons which were not publicly revealed (but may include engaging in liturgical wars on campus and making stupid statements about "gay" embryos)and calls the Vatican so that pressure may be applied to "give me back my University"."

the bolded text above are most emphatically NOT things we know. The italicised portion is presented as a quotation from fr. Fessio. A quotation you can't source because you made it up.

Face it, for whatever reason, you're willing to misrepresent the truth (claiming we know the above, inventing quotes, accusing Fessio of inciting a riot, etc.) Whether this is from a dislike of Fessio or some sort of toadyism toward Monaghan, who can say?

Franklin Jennings

I somehow deleted a chunk of text above, and apologise. Please insert an ellipse between "embryos...and".

Mark

bill,

You're welcome to take issue with the characterization of the students reaction (fed by Fr. Fessio's emotional appeal to at least one student) a "riot". However, you may ask yourself whether this kind of student/administration confrontation is appropriate to Our Lady's University:

http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070323/NEWS0104/70323003/1075

"After an outcry of angry students after the Wednesday dismissal of Ave Maria University Provost the Rev. Joseph Fessio, officials at the school announced Thursday they would keep the administrator on in a different role."

bill912

Copout, Mark. You were wrong. Just admit it. That's what a Man does when he's wrong.

Mark

You got me Bill. Fr. Fessio did not incite a "riot"; rather he incited "an outcry of angry students ..."

Thanks for helping me see the light...

bill912

"Words mean things."

Riot In The Second Degree (Section 240.05, New York State Penal Law): "A person is guilty of riot in the second degree when, simultaneously with four or more other persons, he engages in tumultuous and violent conduct and thereby intentionally or recklessly causes or creates a grave risk of causing public alarm."

Inciting To Riot (Section 240.08, New York State Penal Law): "A person is guilty of inciting to riot when he urges ten or more persons to engage in tumultuous and violent conduct of a kind likely to create public alarm."

A.Williams

What we got going here appears to be a classic showdown between Spirit or charism and Money. Both have a degree of power. 'Spirit and charism' need the use of 'money' to form the physical structure in which to operate. But 'Money and physical structure' need the 'spirit and charisma' to actually give that structure a living and growable potential, which can acrually generate both more spiret and Charism, and more money too.

It's a great marraige when it works well when the main charisma force and the main money force are on the same level of understanding and agreement. However, if there is any confusion, and the agreement somehow falters, then there will evidently be a division or divorce that will take place.

Clearly Fr. Fession operates on the Charisma side. And Monaghan primarily has the money and financial power. He also has some charisma, but this is apparently at odds with Fessio's charisma.

And so there is a show down.

And what we have seen is that Fessio has played hi'charisma' card, and showed to Monaghan the power and even financial value of his Charisma.

And Monaghan has experienced it first hand with all the opposition to Fessio's abrupt firing. Monaghan has also understood that it is very possible for everything he has worked for to crumble to the dust without the demonstratably powerful carisma of Fr.Fessio, and he is correct in this analysis.

And Fr. Fessio, having few financial resorces to otherwise rely on, knows that the project he loves will also be destroyed if he leaves. And he doesn't want to kill his 'charism born' baby, AMU.

Hence we have this present resolution.

That's how I see it. I really hope it works!!

God bless both of them and God bless AMU!!

Jordan Potter

"Are you required to back up your statement with any logic or facts or are you speaking ex cathedra?"

Yes. You evidently think you're not required to, though.

"What facts have I gotten wrong?"

In this case, it's not your facts that are wrong, but the way you're "spinning" (twisting) the facts. It indicates you think there is something wrong with what Fr. Fessio said, which was nothing more than a sound application of Catholic principles to a purely hypothetical situation. Perhaps that's because you don't believe homosexuality is a disorder, or perhaps it's because you believe genetic therapies are immoral, or perhaps you just have it in for Fr. Fessio for some unfathomable reason and are trying to find something bad you can say about it. There could be another reason, but my money's on the third option.

SDG

Instead of leaving peacefully

This must be some new meaning of the word "peacefully" I was previously unaware of. (Like "rioting" rosary prayers.)

John

Jordan posted:

"Oh, and John, who the heck is Moynihan and what did he have to do with Fr. Fessio's forced resignation? Please take your Symphony Of A Single Note somewhere else -- it got pretty stale and lifeless a loooooong time ago."

Jordan, sorry for the mispelling, but even with that one would I think recognize he is the founder of AMU, Mr. Tom Monaghan and I guess he got tired of Father Fessio acting as provst to push forth his own agenda at the expense of AMU. Last I checked it was Mr MONAGHAN's money not Fessio, and because Fessio is so hooked with DeLubac and other heretical theologians maybe he got exposed once and for all and this time even a Vatican coverup as in the pedophila scandal could not save him as other corrupt priests have been able to hide under

Slowboy

John:

"because Fessio is so hooked with DeLubac and other heretical theologians maybe he got exposed once and for all and this time even a Vatican coverup as in the pedophila scandal could not save him as other corrupt priests have been able to hide under"

If you have evidence publish it. If not retract. If you don't retract then you are guilty of caluminy. BTW:"maybe" doesn't protect you from the sin. You have painted someone as a heretic and pedophile. Prove it.

Mark

Jordan,

I think it's somewhat misguided of Fr. Fessio to associate himself with a crackpot Seminary Rector who says that "gay" embryos should be genetically altered ...

Enjoy your weekend ...

bill912

You're right, Jordan; "spinning" is the word. Facts, or lack of same, are irrelevant to one with an axe to grind. I doubt his animosity to Father Fessio began this week.

John

Retract what?

That he was working for a private university not protected by Vatican or USCCB coverup provisions, and was walked off campus immediately as one does when they are firing a thief?

In the private world, when one is suspected of fraud or crimes, we have security come up and meet the employee and walk them off campus, much like Father Fessio was asked to leave, plain old fired!

No axe to grind, just goes to show that when one is not under the cloak of coverup and has to stand on ones own merits as an instrument of Christ, these so called great modernist theologians seem to be failing miserably. Was he not the Popes right hand man in all of his books?

materfamilias

A. Williams, Thanks for a reasoned and sensible discussion of what is clearly a painful issue for so many. It's always wise to take a step back instead of engaging in a futile back and forth that keeps repeating the same arguments.

Jarnor23

You know, if not for strong overtones of "there's nothing wrong with them there gay babies that needs a-fixing" wafting from Mark's criticisms, I'd be considering my first guess a lot more strongly...

Anyone able to trace his IP back to see if it's coming from random Domnio's online ordering terminals around the country? ;)

amihow

Am I wrong or was it Fr. Fessio or his agent who fired Dom Bettinelli in a similar fashion when his wife had just had a baby? If I am right, maybe Fr. Fessio could offer Dom a new job.

It is most true that in all places, Catholic institutions should be examples of charity when disputes arise.

Jordan Potter

"I think it's somewhat misguided of Fr. Fessio to associate himself with a crackpot Seminary Rector who says that 'gay' embryos should be genetically altered ..."

You've got no business commenting on a subject if you aren't going to get your facts straight and treat the subject fairly and honestly. Rev. Mohler is not a crackpot seminary rector, he's a well known and respected evangelical Protestant leader in the U.S. And there's nothing outrageous about speculating that if homosexuality were the result of faulty genes and those genes could be fixed, then it would be licit to fix those genes so long as no harm comes to the unborn child or the mother.

You have a nice weekend too, Mark.

Oh, and John, you have absolutely no business passing judgment on theologians such as Henri de Lubac. That's the Catholic Church's job. Please try not to do things that are vastly beyond your pay scale. De Lubac was a man of the church, and like all good Catholic theologians he submitted his work to the judgment of the church. He made mistakes and was called on it, and he humbly submitted. Would that we could find the same docility coming from you.

Origen made various theological errors too, and some of his propositions and propositions of his disciples were condemned by the Church. But Origen is still a crucially important Father of the Church despite his mistakes. Same with Henri de Lubac. He made mistakes (what theologian doesn't -- even Aquinas botched the Immaculate Conception), but his work is in general regarded as valuable for the Church today. Since the Church hasn't condemned him and all of his work, it is not permitted that anyone, least of all a schismatic such as yourself, John, to vaunt yourself and presume to condemn him. I would strongly advise you to hie thee to a confessional post haste.

Pope Benedict XVII

"Was he not the Popes right hand man in all of his books?"

No, he vas not.

A. Nonymous

"And there's nothing outrageous about speculating that if homosexuality were the result of faulty genes and those genes could be fixed, then it would be licit to fix those genes so long as no harm comes to the unborn child or the mother."

I'm very sceptical of the putative genetic basis of homosexuality. Even if, for the sake of argument, I concede that it is genetic, I do not think the germ line DNA should be altered for any reason. Francis S. Collins, Christian and director of the Human Genome Project, makes a very good case for this position. Seldom is a trait coded by only one gene rather than the interaction of a great many, and yet more seldom does a gene or group thereof serve only one function. There's just no way of knowing the consequences of taking such a drastic measure. And all of this to ablate one sinful temptation that will in all likelyhood just be replaced by another?

G Willikers

Did Fessio really need Monaghan to give him the reasons for his termination? How about:

*Student enrollment falling significantly
*Recent loss of Three Department Chairs
*Other faculty leaving disgusted (Wall Street Journal, "Domino's Iluminatio Mea", by Naomi Schaefer Riley, 8/19/06)
*AMU will without accreditation after 4 years of Fessio as Provost
*Board-sponsored study suggested Fessio resign

MENE PERES TEKEL

bill912

Do you *know* that those were the reasons Father Fessio was fired? If so, how do you know?

Eileen R

A. Nonymous, I completely agree with you. The whole "if we could find the gene that caused gayness and nothing else" prospect is so *out there* scientifically at the moment that I'm not sure I see the worth of deciding what to do then. On the other hand, I can see the real harm of the discussion legitimizing possibly harmful genetic interference or leading to the idea that we know homosexuality is a matter of one gene, rather than a complex issue with various shades of existence.

I mean, you'd think it should be obvious to people that not everyone who experiences homosexual attraction experiences it on the same level, and that homosexual attraction can coexist with heterosexual attraction in some people, but somehow it isn't obvious, and the idea of a 'off and off' gene makes rather complex biological/psychological situations falsely black and white.

A.Williams

Eileen,
This whole scenario of trying to isolate genes for prenatal manipulation could also easily spiral completely out of control. After getting rid of the Homosexual gene, what about any other bothersome gene!

Knowing the vanity already inherent in most of mankind, I could only speculate that a future with patented prenatal 'Victoria Secret' or 'GQ' gene alteration packages might be available for sale. Gene cataloges anyone?

The new California lingo might go something like.."Oh yeah! Designer babies are sooo in! Do you know that the new teeth shades are up to 92 bright white! Like really and they're prehardened too! The only problem is that you can only get them in the Gore Vidal collection, and you know how expensive that is! But it comes with a "No Braces Guaranteed!" warranty. But be careful not to check the Tom Cruise style...yuk!"

Slowboy

Knowing the vanity already inherent in most of mankind, I could only speculate that a future with patented prenatal 'Victoria Secret' or 'GQ' gene alteration packages might be available for sale. Gene cataloges anyone?

Not a good argument in my mind as we are already there. Plastic surgery can be used for modifications as vain as a nose job or a bust bump but the same surgeons are capable of saving people from severe disfigurement from fires, accidents and nature. The question isn't what might someone do with a tool but can the tool be used morally.

Expectant Mom

My obstetrician heard something unusual at my last sonogram: "Doctor, please don't alter me genetically; I'm not gay, I just like the Teletubbies for the educational content".

G Willikers

Yes Bill, I "know" that's why Fessio was fired. I am a fly on the wall in the Pizza man's office.

Sheeesh. This information is all in the public domain. It's the information superhighway. You should try it sometime...

Guy Inpew

If you're wondering what might be behind Fr. Fessio's firing, the following link has extensive quotes from court documents, memos, etc.

http://avewatch.org/fessio

bill912

G Willikers: In other words, you are speculating. No one at AMU has stated why Father Fessio was fired. Your speculation may be correct, but, unless you truly are a fly on the wall, you can't know.

Kristin

I love the Church, but I HATED working for it!

Esquire

This information is all in the public domain. It's the information superhighway. You should try it sometime...

I read it on the internet -- it must be true.

Sorry G Willikers, but bill912's correct on this one. The fact that information is out there which might have prompted some (but certainly not others) to fire Fr. Fessio, provides so little evidence of why Mr. Monaghan actually decided to fire Fr. Fessio to be absolutely useless as evidence of anything.

For my part, I doubt that much of what you offered as the reason played any real part in the decision, but I have neither the evidence nor the desire to try to support my conjecture.

The comments to this entry are closed.

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