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« CPR Update | Main | By Their Lives of Judas You Shall Know Them »

March 21, 2007

Comments

Don

"leave the campus immediately" Wow!

Esau

Darn Catholic Universities!

I was hoping Ave Maria would be different!

Please don't tell me this is a sign that Ave Maria is more likely to adopt the same outrageous secular practices of certain popular Catholic Universities which might be a reason why they've divorced themselves from an orthodox priest as Fessio!

Brian Day

Follow the money.

I suspect there was a falling out with founder and money-man Tom Monaghan.

Don

You're probably jumping the gun to assume that this has anything to do with orthodoxy. All of the founders are pretty solid. If you remember, the same players tried to get a national Catholic radio network going a few years ago and totally flopped. I suspect it's just bad business management.

Amergina

I wonder if it has anything to do with this:

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/03/15/Worldandnation/Treat_gay_babies_befo.shtml

Considering what Tom did to Ave Maria Law School, this is not the least bit surprising. Put not your trust in eccentric super-millionaires.

Esau

You're probably jumping the gun to assume that this has anything to do with orthodoxy. All of the founders are pretty solid. If you remember, the same players tried to get a national Catholic radio network going a few years ago and totally flopped. I suspect it's just bad business management.


Thanks, Don, for providing some reasonable insight!

I'm really hoping that's the case.

I actually admired the original intention of Mr. 'Dominos Pizza' man; hopefully, he still abides by it!

Leigh

Um, I'm actually *at* the school (student)... and there was a press release read off that said "administrative reasons". It's all very confused right now. And I'd really appreciate it if people could not spread rumors about it b/c it's all just crazy right now.

A Simple Sinner

I respect Fr. Fessio, years ago, closer to my high school German Classes, Fr F and I chatted a bit auf Deutsch on Catholic concearns. He earned my respect without question.

Let's not put the cart before the horse or get the rumor mill going. Perhaps irreconcilable differences indicate they just couldn't agree on what color to pain the hallways. (OK, unlikely... but!...) let's not make assumptions.

Realist

No doubt his "SJing" caught up with him.

Actually, I was just thinking how much fun it would be to spread rumors with reckless abandon.

"I heard Fr. Fessio was not such a fan of the potential new motu proprio and Monaghan threw him out."

"Ave Maria just found Fessio is a Jesuit, and he's gone."

"Fessio just realized the Naples he's in doesn't have any good gellato."

"Fr. Mike Scanlon of Franciscan University of Steubenville has begun a systematic takeover."

"Students opposing a crummy translation of the Regina Coeli took over the administration building, and fired Fessio to show they were serious."

JD

woops! That was me, and it was in fun!

Don

The surest way to avoid rumors is to offer the truth. "Administrative reasons" is about as nebulous as you can get.

Esau

The surest way to avoid rumors is to offer the truth. "Administrative reasons" is about as nebulous as you can get.

Sure as heck agree with you, Don!

People think that they can avoid scandal by providing such 'spin'; however, in the end, they end up generating more of this undesirable element than they would've had they simply stated what actually happened.

Anon

"...leave the campus immediately" sure seems inconsistent with "University officials would like Fessio to serve the university in an advisory capacity in the future"

Jordan Potter

Well, whatever is going on here, it's very bad news for Ave Maria University and AMU's students. After the debacle that Tom Monaghan created with Ave Maria College and Ave Maria Law School, it's sad to say, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprise if this is an evil herald of bad things yet to come.

Esau

but I wouldn't be the least bit surprise if this is an evil herald of bad things yet to come.

The OMEN

arthur

Speaking as someone who works in higher education administration, the phrase "irreconcilable difference over administration policies and practices" may be both true and relatively innocuous.

Fr Fessio was provost at AMU and that is the number 2 man in academic administration. The job of a president of a university is to set overall policy. The provost then takes that policy and turns it into administrative practice. Think of the president as a corporate CEO and the provost as the COO.

So therefore the president and the provost have to work hand in hand and if there are disagreements over how to run the university (and since we don't know the details it could be any of the incredibly mundane things that it takes to keep one going), and considering the fact that the president is the man who is ultimately responsible, it is not surprising that he was asked to leave.

That's my view of it at any rate. At least until more information is forthcoming.

Esau

arthur:

Thanks for that info!

Hopefully, we'll come to know more.

John

Typical wolf in sheeps clothing act, appear to be "Traditional" and then sell out to secularism...sound familiar?

God bless TRUE Catholics who hold fast to Tradition, faith, the mass and morals

Slowboy

Amazing, I thought Original Sin started sometime BEFORE Vatican II.

Thanks, John. I learn something new each day.

David B.

I don't think that his firing is over doctrinal difference, as some here have suggest. If that were the case, then why are they keeping his on as an advisor?

Once again John, you prove that someone can rides his Hobby Horse wherever he pleases!

Jimmy, I can't see why you haven't banned this sadly obsessed man.

A Simple Sinner

David B.

At least he is a fun little gnome. Not a full grown troll, to be sure. If I had to guess, I would say he is 17, maybe 19. A junior troll? Gnome works for me.

'"Ave Maria just found Fessio is a Jesuit, and he's gone."' I laughed out loud on that one, JD. Thanks.


Some Day

Hey I'm 17 and I am no troll! ;)

JoAnna

God bless TRUE Catholics who hold fast to Tradition, faith, the mass and morals

I was under the impression that TRUE Catholics also submitted to the rightfully elected Pope. If that's the case, John, you wouldn't fall under the category you so fervently bless.

BillyHW

"Ave Maria just found Fessio is a Jesuit, and he's gone."

That's a good one. Just too funny.

:)

I wonder, is he a gymnast? Because the way his logic tumbles he seems like he's managed to put his foot in his mouth. Does he talk that way to his mother?

Georgette

It is a noble thing for a devout Catholic to use his riches to start something so useful to the Catholic community in America. I wish that instead of all the gossip and speculation, we could all unite in prayer for this wonderful enterprise to regain its footing and be the successful university we are so much in need of. It is quite apparent that the devil does not want this university to be successful which is why it is under such attack from within as well as from outside. United we stand, divided we fall. Let's all fight the good fight and with God's help it will work!

Esau

God bless TRUE Catholics who hold fast to Tradition, faith, the mass and morals --

That is, those TRUE Catholics who RESPECT the AUTHORITY given to Peter and his successors by CHRIST Himself!

"Forasmuch as, my Lord" (quoth he), "this indictment is grounded upon an Act of Parliament, directly oppugnant to the laws of God and his holy Church, the supreme government of which, or of any part thereof, may no temporal prince presume by any law to take upon him as rightfully belonging to the See of Rome, a spiritual pre-eminence by the mouth of our Saviour himself, personally present upon the earth, to St. Peter and his successors, bishops of the same see, by special prerogative, granted, it is therefore in law amongst Christian men insufficient to charge any Christian."

St. Thomas More, Pray for Us!


May we be rid of not only rogue clergy and laity, but also those 'Judas', those seditious traitors of the Catholic Church, more precisely, the RAD TRADS!


More Fessio-s, More Hahns, More Akins, More Staples -- Less JTNOVAS@OPTLINE.COM!

Don

Probably the good Father left to spend more time marketing his new breakfast cereal -- Fessi-O's

tim

Esau, dude, settle down.

'thann

Did anyone take the time to read the truly vile comments at the bottom of the Naples News article? It appears that editorial staff is deleting them as soon as they're posted, but many remain.

I believe the good father's forced resignation is fallout from his gay embryo comments (article posted by someone above). AMU is already on shaky ground, and Mr. Monaghan doesn't need any more controversy than he already has.

John

Esau posted:

"More Fessio-s, More Hahns, More Akins, More Staples -- Less JTNOVAS@OPTLINE.COM!"

Ahhh Esau, just what I have been waiting for, you to repeat your publication of my personal e-mail address on a public blog in full violation of FCC Rules, I figured your hatred and lack of ability to discuss matters in a cerebral manner would get the best of you. Now I have all of the proof the investigators whom I have contacted were waiting for!!

Unfortunatly you now place Mr Akin in jeopardy unless he does away with you.

Thank you Esau!

JD

This is a pretty good post about the situation, from a blog everyone will enjoy
http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/

"I believe the good father's forced resignation is fallout from his gay embryo comments (article posted by someone above). AMU is already on shaky ground, and Mr. Monaghan doesn't need any more controversy than he already has."

There's no evidence to support that speculation, and anyway Fr. Fessio's comments weren't controversial, but were simply an application of orthodox Catholic doctrine to a hypothetical situation. If Monaghan doesn't need any more controversy, then he shouldn't fire popular major staff member during the school year.

Seems more likely it had something to do with disagreements with President Nealy about liturgy on campus. But, again, that's speculation. Father Fessio says Monaghan refused to give a reason for his dismissal.

With Monaghan's mismanagement of Ave Maria College and Ave Maria Law School, it's no surprise he's also bungling Ave Maria University too. He may know pizza, but he seems utterly out of his element in his forays into college-founding.

Esquire

Esau (and Jimmy),

Have no fear of John and his ignorant bluster:

Ahhh Esau, just what I have been waiting for, you to repeat your publication of my personal e-mail address on a public blog in full violation of FCC Rules, I figured your hatred and lack of ability to discuss matters in a cerebral manner would get the best of you. Now I have all of the proof the investigators whom I have contacted were waiting for!!

Unfortunatly you now place Mr Akin in jeopardy unless he does away with you.

You have broken no laws, and violated no FCC rules. I would be honored to defend you against John and any of his so-called "investigators."

In the end, the Truth always prevails.

JD

I've just figured it out. Why this might have might have happened has been plaguing me all day.

On Tuesday, Father Fessio had a hankering for cheese and sauce, and when Monaghan saw a Pizza Hut delivery truck bring a "Cheesy Bites" pizza to Fessio's door, all bets were off.

Jordan Potter

The above anonymous comment timestamped "Mar 22, 2007 6:13:50 AM" was from me. I don't know why my name was left off.

Esau (who has rejected his birthright):"May we be rid of not only rogue clergy and laity, but also those 'Judas', those seditious traitors of the Catholic Church, more precisely, the RAD TRADS!"

St. Pio was a Trad. As I recall, he couldn't bring himself to say the New Mass, and said the Traditional Latin Mass to the end of his life. Maybe what AMU is lacking (besides Fr. Fessio) is some of that "old time religion." It's good enough for me.

bill912

You recall wrong. St. Pio was given permission to say the TLM because his eyesight was failing and he could say the TLM from memory.

Esquire

Bill912,

You're not actually suggesting that a saint should have to ask for permission to do something in the Church, are you?

Must be another post-V2 innovation.

Anyone who could say the Tridentine Mass from memoray could certainly say New Mass. I don't believe that any serious commentator believes that St. Pio was all that willing to say the New Mass, and I can't really blame him.

bill912

What part of "failing eyesight" did you not understand?

bill912

St. Pio's sister was a nun who left her order because she disagreed with Vatican II. It broke his heart, as he hated rebellion of any stripe.

Oh yeah, it's bill912. I gotta agree.

Esau

Esquire:

You are certainly a BLESSING in these threads!

As I mentioned before in past threads, I just hope you continue posting here! You have SO MUCH to offer us in terms of both your extensive knowledge and wisdom!

We need more FAITHFUL and TRUE CATHOLICS like you, brutha!

God Bless You!

Esau

Probably the good Father left to spend more time marketing his new breakfast cereal -- Fessi-O's


Don:

hehehe... I was thinkin' the same! <=^)

That'd go well with my sandwhiches that have Virginia Mayo-naise!

(sorry... old pun! Nobody probably knows who Virgnia Mayo actually is these days anyway.)

ajb

Anyword on whether Fessio got one Dominos "thirty-minutes-or-it's-free" deals about cleaning out his desk?

bill912

Virginia Mayo, actress. Co-starred with Gregory Peck in "Captain Horatio Hornblower".

Esau

Actually, Virginia Mayo happens to be my favourite actress due to the Kaye films.

Absolutely Stunningly Beautiful -- that Goldwyn Girl dame!

jt82

Here is the problem that bothers me about the whole thing: It seems to be a rather heavy handed action from the top. At one time I considered applying for a position there and now I am quite glad I didn't. They may have been in the right, but there is enough uncertainty based on how they handled this, that I am glad to stay in my secular school.

David B.

"St. Pio was a Trad."

But not a Rad -Trad.

Different Day

Probably the good Father left to spend more time marketing his new breakfast cereal -- Fessi-O's

I will never accept Fessio-s!

TomA

I would have to agree with whoever posted the comments:

With Monaghan's mismanagement of Ave Maria College and Ave Maria Law School, it's no surprise he's also bungling Ave Maria University too. He may know pizza, but he seems utterly out of his element in his forays into college-founding.

And also add the last minute pull out of St. Mary's college in Orchard Lake leaving a lot of students in a last minute lurch. None of what has transpired so far leads me to believe that what he wants to accomplish will ever be able to. Maybe a new venture would be "Ave Maria Pizza, delivered hot and fresh in 30 decades (of the Rosary silly) or less"

Esau

None of what has transpired so far leads me to believe that what he wants to accomplish will ever be able to.


That is such a tragedy!

I guess the prospect of founding an All-Catholic community will never actually be realized.

Just don't get it --

How come Protestants are far more successful in this regard?

Are Catholics so lukewarm in their Faith that they can't really accomplish things of such collective nature?

Jordan Potter

"I guess the prospect of founding an All-Catholic community will never actually be realized."

You want an all-Catholic community? Then get out there and start working to convert your non-Catholic friends and neighbors to Catholicism.

Esau

Jordan Potter:

Excellent recommendation!

Unfortunately, it's easier said than done. <=^(

(especially with certain Catholics out there who instead of promoting the Catholic Church actually undermine it; i.e., rad trads, liberals, etc.)

A.Williams

Let's not forget that some COUNTRIES are actually very much Catholic influenced, even if all of their citizens don't actually practice the Faith.

I live in a highly Catholic country, the Dominican Republic, and it is hard to believe how easy it is to talk with a 'regular Joe'..(ok Jose), about the Rosary, or any other Catholic topic! I was out on the streets of Santo Domingo a little more than 2 weeks ago, and discussed the faith non-stop with folk on the street for about 3 hours. Everyone was open! Having the country born in Catholicism is really a great benefit in evangelization!

So, if one little Catholic town in America doesn't do so well, we need not worry too much! The big leagues are playing in Brazil, and playing for nations...and this is what our star Pope B16 has his sights on!

And I can tell everyone...it is GREAT to be living in a Catholic country! I never knew it would be so spiritually pleasurable! Poor as they are the whole of society is just a 'notch' higher than I found in California...and in this they seem humbler and closer to God. Not that I don't love my country, but I wish ALL countries were similarly Catholic! "Blessed are the Poor" certainly applies here!

Dan Hunter

Amen,A.Williams.
God bless you

Jordan Potter

"Unfortunately, it's easier said than done"

True, nobody said it is easy. Quite the contrary, actually. But even St. Paul faced opposition from Judaisers and false apostles.

"Poor as they are the whole of society is just a 'notch' higher than I found in California...and in this they seem humbler and closer to God."

A fellow parishioner who spent a few months in Costa Rica last year made a similar observation. Yeah, money and consumer goods are nice, but a happy, safe, and peaceful community imbued with Catholic faith is much more preferable to the culture in the United States.

Michael

It is quite apparent that the devil does not want this university to be successful which is why it is under such attack from within as well as from outside.

Yes and it is quite apparent that the enemy chose to attack the schools through the weakness of Monaghan's monstrous ego. First Ave Maria Law School and now the University in Naples may be endangered by his need to always be right, even when he is not.

A Simple Sinner

http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2005/03/marriage_involv_2.html

http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/12/tridentine_mass.html

http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/11/the_smoke_of_sa.html

http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/09/schism_and_mort.html

Sorry John, the four links above show where you have previously made known in this forum your email address. You didn't have to but you did - you made it part of the public record of a public forum.

Given your stance and style, however... I for one can't imagine why anyone would want to bother to use it.

Esau

heheh... A Simple Sinner comes through again! ;^)

Mike

I heard he's up for the basketball coaching job at Iowa.

Don

Amy Wellborn reports that AMU is backpeddling. They are keeping Fr. Fessio on as a theologian-in-residence, but are giving him an assignment that keep him out of the country. I think the damage has been done and we'll continue to see a decline unless Monaghan steps aside.

Esau

That's a tragedy.

Fessio still carries weight with me, at least -- I'm still upset over the fact that they had actually done this.

Jamie Beu

Mohler advised his readers to brace for the possibility that homosexuality may have a biological basis. He wrote that such proof would not alter the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality.

His argument was endorsed by the Rev. Joseph Fessio, provost of Ave Maria University in Naples and editor of Ignatius Press, Pope Benedict XVI's U.S. publisher. "If there are ways of detecting diseases or disorders of children in the womb, and a way of treating them that respected the dignity of the child and mother, it would be a wonderful advancement of science," Fessio said.

Wow!

Even if homosexuality is a genetic disorder, are we allowed (as Catholics) to tamper with genes in the first place? Isn't this just a 21st century form of eugenics?

Jordan Potter

"Even if homosexuality is a genetic disorder, are we allowed (as Catholics) to tamper with genes in the first place?"

Why wouldn't we be? We can "tamper" with broken bones and defective organs. Why couldn't we repair a broken gene, if it could be done in a way that respects human dignity?

"Isn't this just a 21st century form of eugenics?"

No, unless you think heart and kidney transplants, and hip or knee replacement, and artificial limbs or even mere plaster casts, are eugenics.


bill912

I'm with you, Jordan. I'm not ready to become a Christian Scientist.

Different Day

I will never accept Scientologists!

Jordan Potter

Different Day, the pseudoreligion of Scientology, intentionally founded as a moneymaking scam by mediocre science fiction author L. Ron Hubbard, has nothing to do with Christian Science, founded by Mary Baker Eddy.

Esau

I'm with you, Jordan. I'm not ready to become a Christian Scientist.

Actually, bill912, I believe Jordan is advocating (rightly, of course, in my view) that it is acceptable to not necessarily tamper with the gene but to affect repairs on them via genetic engineering as you would any defects/health conditions suffered by the human individual as with a broken bone or a defective organ.

bill912

???

Esau

???

Jordan, am I interpreting your post correctly?

Jordan Potter

Esau, I think you and Bill both understood me correctly.

Jordan Potter

But I think Esau may not have understood Bill.

Esau

I thought bill912 was making it seem that christianity and science were mutually exclusive.

Moreover, I think 'tamper' is the wrong word here.

'Repair', just as you've put it, is more fitting.

bill912

Esau, Christian Science is the name of a religion that prohibits recourse to the medical profession.

Esau

My bad --

I thought when you said I'm not ready to become a Christian Scientist you were making a statement of how this Science and Christianity don't mix and that technology such as the utilization of genetic engineering in this regard was actually a bad thing.

Jordan Potter

Hey, it's an honest mistake. It's not like "Christian Science" actually has anything to do with either Christianity or science.

Esau

By the way, isn't Scientology based on the book Dianetics and, really, isn't even a religion?

Although, Tom Cruise, its 'Messiah' figure (as some have already declared him so and even made such parallels between him and Jesus Christ, in fact!), as well as Travolta, his wife, and others seem to think so!

Tim J.

The only thing about disallowing gene "tampering", but allowing gene "repair" is that one man's "repair" will be another man's "tampering".

Once we start flipping genetic switches, I see no barrier that will prevent us from making them all fair game. Now, in reality, there probably IS an ethical barrier that could be articulated eventually, but I have seen not even a little tendency for scientists on the cutting edge in the field to take notice of that kind of thing.

As I have said in an earlier thread;

"... what is the definition of a "disease"? Cancer? Dwarfism? Attention Deficit Disorder? Can we trust ourselves to program our children? Where do we stop?"

For many, ethics means only...

"...how far can we go without offending current social taboos and losing our funding?".

Tim J.

Soory. Last post was WAY off topic.

Esau

Yeah, but keep in mind, Tim J., that Medicine back in its very early days was also viewed by some as such a 'tampering' and, in the case of some groups, even witchcraft.

Like medicine, genetic remedies can also be abused in the manner you described but that doesn't mean that its utility is in and of itself is evil.

In fact, just like medicine, it can be used for the good of the human individual in spite of the fact it can be 'abused' in such a manner.

Esau

Further, I don't see how we should deprive ourselves of this technology if it can actually help the human race find solutions to many of the serious medical dilemmas faced by humanity for several years provided that the technology, just like that of medicine, is utilized in such a manner that is ethical and is not abused to such a horrid extent.

Again, the technology itself is not wrong; it's how it is utilized that determines this.

Medicine can help folks while it can also hurt them as well if it is abused.

Genetic technology can help folks while it can also help them as well if it is abused.

Jordan Potter

I'm doubtful that ethical, moral gene therapies could be developed: our genes are so complicated that fixing a problem in a gene could set off a cascade of unforeseen, entirely different genetic changes and problems. But if we ever figure out how to repair genetic defects in a way that respects human dignity, the Church would endorse it. Thus, there is nothing objectionable about Fr. Fessio's comments, which were based on two hypotheticals -- that homosexuality is genetically-driven and that we could find a way to repair any damage that might results in a child succumbing to homosexuality. Neither of those things is very likely to be proven true any time soon, but if they did come true, Fr. Fessio's comments are exactly the way the Church would respond.

Esau

CORRIGENDUM:

Genetic technology can help folks while it can also hurt them as well if it is abused.

Jordan Potter

"By the way, isn't Scientology based on the book Dianetics and, really, isn't even a religion?"

Yes, and yes.

Actually the "cosmology" of Scientology was slapped together by Hubbard from some of his pulp sci-fi books, so it's based not only on his book Dianetics (allegedly a work of non-fiction) but also his works of fiction.

Esau

I'm doubtful that ethical, moral gene therapies could be developed: our genes are so complicated that fixing a problem in a gene could set off a cascade of unforeseen, entirely different genetic changes and problems

This is a new techonology -- with any new technology, there is a period where much erudition and knowledge accumulation is necessary in order to gain a certain mastery of it (though, admittedly, even having gained a more superior knowledge of certain things as compared to that in the past, real 'mastery' never actually happens; e.g., pharmacology).

It will take a substantial amount of time (perhaps generations from now as we are basically in the infancy phase of this technology) before we actually are able to utilize this technology accordingly.


based on two hypotheticals -- that homosexuality is genetically-driven

That's a big 'if' since one cannot ignore that there may be psychological reasons for this type of behaviour and not actually genetic ones.

Tim J.

Not to mention possible non-genetic physical influences on homosexuality; the chemical changes that may result from stress in the womb, etc...

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