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February 14, 2007

Comments

Fr. Erik Richtsteig

I have seen advertisements by a group called Standing with Peter in solid magazines like HPR. While I doubt helping with employment is one of their primary concerns, they might be able to point this fellow in the right direction.

AnnonyMouse

Is their a former priest's network support group that can help find former priest's find employment? Or would you happen to know someone who could help me?

I don't know of any support group but I will offer you my prayers. I can only imagine how difficult this is for you.

Mary Kay

Fr. R, what's HPR?

My first thought was the section from Jeremiah:

"So I went down to the potter's house; and there he was, working at the wheel. And whenever the vessel he was making came out wrong, as happens with the clay handled by potters, he would start afresh and work it into another vessel."

That's the Jerusalem Bible translation of Jeremiah 18:3-4.

For employment assistance, one of the best resources is the book and workbook What Color is Your Parachute.

Friar

The former priest might try Opus Bono Sacerdotii. While that group was founded primarily to assist priests who have been forced to leave the active ministry (for whatever reason), they are very concerned to assist priests once they have left the ministry...

http://www.opusbonosacerdotii.org/home/index.asp


Realist

Every state has employment opportunities posted on the web. Ditto for the Federal government.

e.g. employment opportunities in Pennsylvania at: http://sites.state.pa.us/jobpost.html

in the Federal government at:
http://www.usajobs.opm.gov/

Then there are employment agencies like www.monster.com www.career.com and www.carreer.com

Fr. R, what's HPR?

Homiletic and Pastoral Review, edited by Fr. Kenneth Baker, S.J.

See:

http://www.ignatius.com/magazines/hprweb/index.htm

A.Williams

In a real crunch I would suggest working with your hands somehow. In a small business, for example. This gives you both some independence for spiritual concerns and also interaction with others in providing some sort of useful service to society.

I know it might be humbling for a white collar, intellectually orientated person, to 'pick up a hammer', or some 'pruning shears'...but we must remember that Jesus, Our Lord, performed similar, 'humble' work....as did his 'fisherman' disciples.

A quick business that almost anyone can start, without a contractor's licence would be a gardening service. Yes, some see it as humble, but I did this work for many years..and it still brings great memories to me. If a person is very careful, has some artistic inclination, can talk to people in a humble and honest way, and has only a couple thousand dollars in needed tools...He can probably find a sufficient number of clients by distributing flyers, business cards or other advertisements.

Anyway, if employment is absolutely needed...you can make 20-30,000 flyers...and start your service. Anytime you don't have work..you can be on the street distributing your advertizements door to door--just like in the Legion of Mary!

For me, I never thought it to be humble work, because I loved it so much. But for others...it may very well be humble. However, with this strategy, almost anyone can make, at least a meager, and possibly even a fairly decent, living!

Blessed be the most pure and most humble St. Joseph, the carpenter! And Jesus, "the carpenter's son!" both now and forever! Amen!

JD

if you are still practicing the faith, does anything limit you from using your ministerial skills and training from a lay point of view? try catholicjobs.com

R. Armstrong

As a former priest, I assueme that the gentleman would hold, at min., a masters degree in theology or the like. Any thoughts on teaching at the Jr. College level? I think one only needs a masters degree for this.

Dan Hunter

Dear Father,
The Fraternal Society of St.Peter are always looking for priests who,if they do not know the Classical Rite mass, can teach it to.
This wonderful society is in need of priests and would be most willing to speak with you.
Their district house in the United States of America is at:St Peter's
Griffin Road
P.O.Box 196 Elmhurst,P.A.18416 USA
Their phone number is 1 570 842 4000
Father,they are well worth looking into because they are involved in what Christ commands us to do,saving the souls of many.
God bless you on your journey home to The Almighty.
P.S.Your Rev.can find the FSSP on the same website.

X

I've been down this road and it can be a tough haul bacause you basically have to reinvent yourself. Philosophy and Theology are not exactly marketable skills. The best advice I received about 15 years ago was to take some IT classes and try to get some real world IT experience at a library or Help Desk.

I started taking computer and networking classes at a local community college and worked my way up the ladder in the IT department in a University setting. Eventually I did an online masters degree in Library and INformation TEchnology and now have a decent job in the industry.

My advice is to pick a career and then begin building the knowledge, skills and abilities necessary immediately. A community college is a great place to start because they are normally very plugged into the local businesses and their hiring needs.

All the best!

Monica

Our parish has career counselling to help anyone who is struggling with a job search. Perhaps there is a similar program at another parish local to you?

Also consider (again,if you are still a practicing Catholic) substitute teaching. It will give you days of work here and there, and often the Catholic schools pay cash for a days substituting, which could keep your tummy full 'til you find a more suitable job. They are not always particular about your level of education either, and do not require teacher certification. Peace.

Esau

Good priests have it rough these days.

Those who do retire don't even have a sufficient retirement package (if at all).

Even Fr. Corapi alluded to this fact in one of his talks where he said one of his retired clergy friends ended up taking a job as a cab driver just to make ends meet.

Now, for those who actually quit the priesthood after having served for a significant number of years; the difficulties of finding a job are exacerbated by the fact (among others) that most of their prior work experience was doing ministerial work in the Church and even if they had prior work experience in another profession, the last time they did such-and-such was over some odd years ago.

I feel for this priest and many of our good priests out there as well.

Add to that the fact that because of the "rotten apples" (and that's putting it mildly) in the clergy who treacherously participated in the terrible sex abuse scandal, good priests suffer a greater burden because of this stigma even in spite of their innocence in the matter.

God bless all our good priests out there.

We need to pray for them all and not ever put them down, demanding them to be such 'perfect' individuals when, in fact, they are human like any of us.

As for the wicked ones, let's just place these in God's hands. I'm sure their punishment will surely be one of great pain (Mk 9:42)!

The only thing I could recommend for this person here is for him to visit online job websites like monster.com.

Hope, with God's help, he gets a job soon.

IA_

I second the college job. As I understand it a priest who has left isn't allowed to teach in Catholic institutions but does that apply to Jr. Colleges? I imagine you'd be qualified for Philosophy and Comparative Theology among other subjects. If a move is optional you might want to approach the bishop and ask if there is any way for you to help in another diocese where people don't your history and you can get permission from Rome to assist in some way. I'll be praying for you.

cranky

What about trying to mesh some of the above ideas with something like Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, Barnes and Noble. It's possible to move up as one demonstrates people skills.

They are really only purveyors of content. If you could follow Aquinas, retail content would be simple.

They also sometimes pay at least part of classwork.

Ed S

With a little digging, I found WEORC (pronounced 'work'). It is a voluntary association of men and women formerly engaged in full-time ministry in the Catholic Church. The primary purpose of WEORC is to provide information and job contacts to others who are making the transition from Church service to new careers.

WEORC maintains contact with members through The Word from WEORC, a newsletter published three or four times a year. Members write or phone with job information and other news items about Career Days, picnics, retreats etc. where job seekers can meet and socialize with others who have gone through this often frightening and frustrating experience of looking for work.

Because the newsletter is mailed to every State in the United States and many other countries, WEORC maintains a Zip code listing of members so that job seekers can contact people in their immediate locality. See more of this article at: http://www.marriedpriests.org/WEORC.htm

Find WEORC at: http://www.weorc.org/ Their lists of Resources and Links are useful, as is, if the writer doesn't want to become involved.

He's in my prayers.

Esau

What about trying to mesh some of the above ideas with something like Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, Barnes and Noble. It's possible to move up as one demonstrates people skills.


Cranky:

Your post reminds me of a Protestant minister who gave up his wonderful income that came via his successful ministry just because he wanted to become Catholic.

Marcus Grodi said he was now working as a greeter at a nearby Walmart.

I believe when asked if he regretted his decision, this Catholic convert replied that it was the best decision he made.

Brian

If you have a drivers license you can earn money. Medical transportation, delivery, taxi. You could get your CDL and drive truck or Bus. Major trucking companies pay for cdl training.

John Redcorn

How about coming back?

Ed Peters

Knowing so absolutely little about the man, how can anyone advise anything?

Some Day

Qui.

Some Day

Qui.
And no offense, but the Sacrament of Holy Orders is so powerful that even if you did not have the vocation for it, you'll get it there anyways.
So pretty much no excuse is valid.
Obedience.
Why would they order such a thing anyways?

JD

Some Day-

that is probably the most insensitive comment I have EvER read on JAonline. You know nothing about this man's situation, and "pretty much no excuse is valid" is probably one of the most inane, pea-brained things I have ever heard.

Some Day

Maybe its not the time and place, but the I stand by my words. Never is "leaving" the priesthood a good thing.
Something went wrong.
What?
Varies?
But something.
And why are a you insulting me without valid reason?
I can careless, but I haven't done anything.
I am not quiting on anything.
So why am I the bad one?
Like I said in the first part, maybe it was imprudent of me, but it still true.

PioMagnus

A Mis-discerned vocation...valid reason.
We have a priest who actually lives at my seminary who mis-discerned his vocation. He is no longer in active ministry and works at a gas-station. It is wonderful, and I mean WONDERFUL to see a man who mis-discerned a vocation remain a faithful Catholic.

So there is a valid excuse...that even the Pope recognizes, and may grant laicization (sp?) for.

It isn't fair to assume that the man who wrote Jimmy did something wrong by leaving active ministry.

I'll be praying for you, Father, Good luck.

Esau

And why are a you insulting me without valid reason?
I can careless

Some Day:

I think that's the point; you could care less.

I thought the whole point of being Christian is acting Christian.

Isn't this what Matthew 25 is all about???

Whatever you do unto others, you do unto me???

Matthew 25
44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee?
45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

Some Day

I meant I could careless about him insulting me.
I obviously by the severity of my post DO CARE about a priest "leaving"the Priesthood.
And please, don't say Christian to me.
Too many bad connotations.
I am Catholic and act Catholic.

Esau

I meant I could careless about him insulting me.

Gotcha.

And please, don't say Christian to me.
Too many bad connotations.
I am Catholic and act Catholic.

I hear you.

God bless!

Some Day

Same to you.

Tony

Christians and Catholics are synonomous. Don't fall into the Fundie Prot trap of separating the words.

I hate when someone says I am Catholic and not Christian.

Bob

Back to the question at hand...

I would suggest going to your local fire department and volunteering as a chaplain. Yes, you will see some terrible things, and yes, you will be dealing with people on what is probably the worst day of their life. You may have mis-discerned your calling to the priesthood, but God is still calling you to do something...he is calling ALL of us to do SOMETHING. Your training as a priest would, I can almost guarantee you, would be welcomed by any fire department. We watch people die, see them injured, watch as their home and all of their posessions, literally, go up in smoke. Our department's chaplain counsels and helps us firefighters just as much as he helps the victims we encounter. The added bonus for you is that you will meet people all across the spectrum - people you never would have had the opportunity to meet otherwise. And the fact is that most jobs aren't obtained through monster.com or the want-ads...they are obtained through networking.
So go plant that mustard seed. If you are willing to stand on the line in a stranger's darkest hour, I believe God will honor that compassion and lead you down the path he has chosen for you.
God bless you for the service you have given and for the service - in whatever form it may take - that I am sure you will give in the future. And please accept my apologies on behalf of those on this board who have spoken ill of you.

Karen

Here's another jobs site, this one for Federal jobs, assuming the priest is American: http://www.usajobs.opm.gov/ There's quite a lot there.

Marion

Sorry to return to off-topic, but one or two things that have come my way along with a gray hair or two is:

"It is almost always a mistake to assume that you have all the answers to what another person could have done - should have done - ought to do!"

Example: "Divorce is always wrong."

I answer that: Divorce is never a good thing, but sometimes it is absolutely necessary.

Scenario in which the wife is passed out drunk all day long, home alone with a 2-year-old and a 5-year old, and she absolutely refuses to acknowledge that she has a drinking problem or get help, and in order to get sole legal physical custody of the children so that they can be safe, the heartbroken and distraught father obtains a civil divorce.

Many thoughtless, heartless people on hearing of this distraught father's decision, and not knowing the whole story, would say: "He's getting a divorce! Oh, he's not a good Catholic. If he trusted the Lord, he would have stayed and worked it out!"

And in such cases, that father was trying only to keep those little children from ending as another sad headline in the newspapers.

And similarly, with leaving the priesthood: there might be very serious, legitimate, and honorable reasons that someone who loves and trusts God very much would be led to the decision that the Lord is calling him out of the clerical state.

My plea would be "Don't judge. Don't assume. Until you have all the facts."

Tim J.

"My plea would be "Don't judge. Don't assume. Until you have all the facts." "

Amen to that.

I am fortunate to have the greatest wife in the world, but I understand that some people go through periods of their life when they are just toxic to be around.

Faithful Catholics can certainly obtain a civil divorce for serious reasons while still remaining faithful, and without sinning. Remarriage is a different animal, of course.

Joy Schoenberger

I suggest reading The Seven-Story Mountain by Thomas Merton. Convinced that he had a calling as a Franciscan priest, he was devastated when they rejected him from the seminary. (Unfortunately, you've gone further than that.) However, he found his vocation finally as a Trappist monk. Perhaps you are called to a religious life, just not that of a priest?

Anyway, with all the great tips on job-finding that people have thrown out there, I thought I might bring up a completely different direction for you to think/discern about.

Of course, most important of all is to pray, pray, pray. Even a lay person can pray the liturgy of the hours, and there's the rosary, and receipt of the sacraments, if not administration of them, all of which will help you to find your way.

A Simple Sinner

TO get back on topic....

Perhaps the Coming Home Network might be a good place to contact. They constantly deal with ex-Protestant ministers who convert to the Catholic Church... In a REAL sense they face similar issues - no longer able to serve in the capacity that they have trained and sevred in.

For several years while going to school and then running my own business I actually did the "part time thing" nights and weekends to make ends meet but also to have healthcare.

Places like Starbucks, Darden Restaraunts (Olive Garden, Red Lobster, Smokey Bones...) actually DO offer decent healthcare benifits. One gal I knew who waited tables a few nights for healthcare because she did not qualify for it at her sub-teaching job, did rather well. One host I know who shows people to thier tables three nights a week and saturdays used his job at Olive Garden to gain health insurance while starting up his own small business. Yet another I knew had opened up a small boook and coffee shop and was working there to get health insurance for him and his wife during their start up years.

One gal I knew who was rehabbing a house to flip after 24 months of occupancy worked a job 8-4 and pretty much put all her paycheck into the house and the mortgage to fix things and build equity for two years whil lliving off her tips she earned M, W, F & Saturday... She was from Poland and when I asked her if she was not exhausted she replied "I get bored watching cable TV all night!" She was 39.

I know people focus on 9-5 gigs and want to work just one job full time, but sometimes combining part time positions gives us more flexibility and experience.

My Cat's Name Is Lily

Teaching.
Many public schools are actively seeking teachers with training other than an education degree.
And all need substitute teachers. Substitutes are paid according to their level of education, without regard to the field in which it was earned.....Many subs work almost every day of the week, at least in my area, because once a school district finds a reliable, & well educated person for one class, they will call him first for any other class as well.
The word gets around to neighboring schools, etc, etc, unto near-fulltime employment.

dude

I would consider contacting Jim Seghers - of Totus Tuus ministries. He is an ex-priest, became an insurance salesman and now retired into full-time apologetics. He is quite in-touch with many things. Also, his site is great!
http://www.totustuus.com/

dude

Pardon me, I should not say full-time, and his aposotolate is not just apologetics, it is catechesis and mentoring as well.

Anyhow, I think it would be worth shooting an email to him...

Esau

"My plea would be "Don't judge. Don't assume. Until you have all the facts." "


To those folks who may be imputing certain negative impressions on such matters:

Please don't go generalizing priests who have left the ministry as being perhaps unfaithful defectors of the Church.

There may be those who leave it because of the life of celibacy that may have proven too difficult for that person to bear and perhaps the life of a married man was the life that was really meant for that person after all.

Now, who's to say that if such a person were to continue the priestly life, he would have been vainglorious in his attempt and perhaps become drawn further away from Christ rather than closer to him by forcing a burden upon himself that he may not be willing or capable of carrying.

Remember the following from Scripture and how it is often stressed how each person should serve the Lord according to his proper ability:


Matthew 25:15
15 And to one he gave five talents, and to another two, and to another one, to every one according to his proper ability: and immediately he took his journey.

Acts 11:29
29 And the disciples, every man according to his ability, purposed to send relief to the brethren who dwelt in Judea.


In fact, there is a story concerning St. Francis and how he had released one of his fellow monks from his vocation as it seems the man was forcing himself to serve the Lord in this capacity and that the man was more so meant for the married life and not this one.

Some Day

"Don't judge. Don't assume. Until you have all the facts."

Insta-refute: I don't know the full science to fire, but I don't need to know it to know it burns.

Second, celibacy is hard for EVERYONE who has a normal biological inclination to do the marital act. The thing is, if you start to let your guard down, you will get knocked out eventually.
The fight against impurity is a constant one.
And like any war, you cannot go unprepared.
Its like going to war with out your ammo for the gun. Sometimes you might be able to beat him some how, others you won't. And you can't leave it to that chance. It is a fight till you die.

"Vigilate et orate ut non intretis in temptationem spiritus quidem promptus est caro autem infirma " MT 26:41

Some Day

Sorry my post got cut off.
-------------------------------------------------

Don't judge. Don't assume. Until you have all the facts."

Insta-refute: I don't know the full science to fire, but I don't need to know it to know it burns.

Second, celibacy is hard for EVERYONE who has a normal biological inclination to do the marital act. The thing is, if you start to let your guard down, you will get knocked out eventually.
The fight against impurity is a constant one.
And like any war, you cannot go unprepared.
Its like going to war with out your ammo for the gun. Sometimes you might be able to beat him some how, others you won't. And you can't leave it to that chance. It is a fight till you die.

"Vigilate et orate ut non intretis in temptationem spiritus quidem promptus est caro autem infirma " MT 26:41


You got avoid occasions. Always on the alert.
Notice Our Lord said be vigilant and then pray.
I can pray all I want in fron of the tv or talking to memebers of the opposite sex lightly, but that will not do a single thing. You will fall. You know that there is an immoral billboard on certain street, control your eyes and look somewhere else before you get there.
You can fight and say no all day, but trust me, you'll feel at peace.

And without a doubt prayer.
The Rosary.
Some might call it a "girly"prayer, but that just proves they have no true combativeness.
It is more powerful than nuclear weapons.
It moves Our Lady, who will move Our Lord.
She said in Fatima the importance of it.

The Liturgy of The Hours.
Oh how many priests still pray it? They are bound to. Even deacons. But you can get dispensations.
And this country is notorious for dispensations.
It is the official prayer of the Church. And a priest praying it has the value of the whole Church praying it.

Daily Communion
Oh how important this is. It is the life of the Church, therefore the world.
God could not have devised a more perfect way to be with us. Not even the angels could have imagined it. And a priest celebrating a Mass?!
An infinite number of things can be asked in the intentions of the Mass (the priest's, not the faithful's intentions)
And a young Catholic fighting temptations can beg a priest to offer a Mass for those intentions.
And the priest himself should ask for his preserverance in His vocation.
But I warn you though. It is less dangerous for a person to stop praying the Rosary, and to miss Communion because of a mortal sin then to recieve Communion and not pray the Rosary.
Why you ask?
Not because the Eucharist is less, but because the effects depend on our piety. And they who pray the Rosary, Our Lady will take care of somehow. The most important thing is to pray.

Remember your worst enemy looks at you in the mirror (I beg you not to look at him any more than neccesary.)
Only you can sin, not others for you.

Lastly I would like to add is apostolic zeal.
With not thirst for souls, we forget that we are called to give greater glory to God and reach the sainthood and bring others too.

Blessings.

Esau

The Rosary.
Some might call it a "girly"prayer...


Some Day:
Pray tell, who exactly on this blog has called the Rosary a "girly" prayer and in what context are you citing the use of such a word?


Again, going back to what I originally said --

Each person should serve the Lord according to their own capacity.

Also, how can you pronounce such negative, harsh judgments upon certain ex-priests when, in fact, you hardly possess any information that would justly characterize them as such?


Further, as Pio Magnus in his post mentioned:

A Mis-discerned vocation...valid reason.

We have a priest who actually lives at my seminary who mis-discerned his vocation. He is no longer in active ministry and works at a gas-station. It is wonderful, and I mean WONDERFUL to see a man who mis-discerned a vocation remain a faithful Catholic.

So there is a valid excuse...that even the Pope recognizes, and may grant laicization (sp?) for.

It isn't fair to assume that the man who wrote Jimmy did something wrong by leaving active ministry.

I'll be praying for you, Father, Good luck.

Posted by: PioMagnus | Feb 14, 2007 9:13:11 PM

Some Day

The Rosary thing is to refute any idiot who thinks its worthless or for women.

Second, as I said, correctly or incorrectly discerning a vocation is irrelevant when it comes to the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

They are so powerful, that had they or had not the vocation, they recieve it.

And even for religious, even with dispensation to leave, many saints say it is VERY DIFFICULT to get to Heaven. Some say IMPOSSIBLE.

Do you want to risk it?

Esau

The Rosary thing is to refute any idiot who thinks its worthless or for women.

I find it quite the riscible notion that J.R. Stoodley's previous use of the word "girly" in his post in the thread "Seen Any Sasquatch?" is a condescending statement on women. I guess Dana Carvey's use of it in a Saturday Night Live sketch was also a put-down on women as well.


And even for religious, even with dispensation to leave, many saints say it is VERY DIFFICULT to get to Heaven. Some say IMPOSSIBLE.


How high and mighty of you that you would actually usurp the throne of God Himself and cast such ill judgments on people!

Then, I guess St. Francis, as holy as he was, was actually of such wicked intention in that by having released the monk under his care from this religious vocation; he, in fact, cast that person into the very depths of Hell!

Also, in this remark of yours, you actually DENY the AUTHORITY of the Church:


Matt 18:18
18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

Some Day

I did not. I say if you have a religious vocation, you become an apostate, even with permission, you are violating the 1st commandment.
Severely.
Now a novice might leave and not incur this situation.
But a priest never, because of the power of thr Sacrament, he recieved his priestly vocation that instant if he did not have it.
So for priests, misdicerning is not true.
But the Church is Mother.
And is is less worst, not better, for him to satisfy his disordered passions in marriage then with fornication. But the sin against the 1st commandment stands.
As I said, he who does not follow his vocation, many saints say it is VERY DIFFICULT to get to Heaven. Some say IMPOSSIBLE.
Where do you think the Rich Young man of the Bible is now?
Did he misdicern his vocation?
Luckily, he was not ordained.
For if he did he has no excuse.
He should have been the 13th apostle.
The same applies backwards.
Charles V was not pious in retreating to monastary.
His vocation was to rule and keep on fighting.

Esau

I say if you have a religious vocation, you become an apostate, even with permission


Some Day:

Again, you DENY the AUTHORITY of the Church:

Matt 18:18
18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.


Now, please tell me how your statement above reconciles with Jesus' own words?


Although I admire what seems to be a fervent belief you have in the power of the Sacrament (in fact, I wished others had the same), you seem to have overlooked the very authority and power of the Church as given it by Our Lord Himself as Matt 18:18 testifies.

Some Day

The dispensation is valid,
but the man still sins against the 1st commandment for not following God's plan for him.

Esau

The dispensation is valid, but the man still sins against the 1st commandment for not following God's plan for him.

That's just it; how do you know that being a priest was actually God's plan for him???

Some Day

Maybe originally no.
But having validly recieved ordination disapates those doubts because the Sacrament imposes character and also will give vocation if it lacked before, because the Sacrament is just that powerful.

Esau

Maybe originally no.
But having validly recieved ordination disapates those doubts

How can that be???

If it actually did this, such priests wouldn't have left the ministry in the first place.


Also, how about Judas???

Some Day

He is still a bishop in Hell.
He did not follow his vocation.
In fact he was the first man to be "anti-cannonized"
Our Lord said it would have been better for him not to have been born.

Apostates don't have doubts. They have weakness and choose not to fight it.
Creating doubts is another thing.
Every act of human being must be rationalized,
correctly or otherwise.
So they create reasons as to why they sin.


But lets end this.
I'll say one last thing.

I never met an apostate from anything who was completely happy.
Or even a little.
Pleasure does not equal happiness.

Esau

Apostates don't have doubts. They have weakness and choose not to fight it.
Creating doubts is another thing.

Though I don't agree with your reasoning, this thought here gives a rather interesting different insight though.

I appreciate your candor and honesty.

God bless.

John J. Simmins

"Did he misdicern his vocation?"

This is interesting. What if a married guy (with children -- you pick the number) wrote in and said he misdiscerned his vocation and wanted to become a priest?

Esau

"Did he misdicern his vocation?"

This is interesting. What if a married guy (with children -- you pick the number) wrote in and said he misdiscerned his vocation and wanted to become a priest?


Then the Catholic Church must be the biggest hypocrisy there is since it not only allows annulments for marriages but also allows the laicization of priests.

Some Day

He can't.

He needs his wifes permission to leave.
And even with that permission, it would be the same thing I said about Charles V. Many people do that these days, they join a monastery because there is garanteed food, shelter and don't have to face the world.
It is so selfish those intentions.

If your vocation is to be a world leader then follow it. Some were made for the world.
St. Louis of France wanted to be a monk, but did his duty to be heir and produce heirs.
So the same applies.
You don't follow your vocation, you don't follow you path to Heaven.

So what is the path they are taking?

A Simple Sinner

"Did he misdicern his vocation?"

This is interesting. What if a married guy (with children -- you pick the number) wrote in and said he misdiscerned his vocation and wanted to become a priest?

1) He would be told he cannot

2) He would be invited to consider the diaconate

3) He may pursue ordination in the Eastern Catholic Church

4) He may seek special dispensation from Rome if his wife also wishes to leave the married household for a vocation once thier children are raised. This has happened but it is RARE....

BUT could we stay on topic a bit here?

20. When Jimmy is answering a pastoral question (i.e., for a person asking about an actual that they or someone they know is involved in, as opposed to a hypothetical situation) that can be phrased in the form "Is it morally licit to do X?", do not contradict Jimmy in the comments box. People asking pastoral questions on moral subjects often feel very disoriented and confused if they get a debate rather than an answer on a sensitive question about a situation they, a friend, or a family member is involved in.

For the peace of mind of the person who asked the question, challenges to such answers need to be handled a different way. Instead of using the comments box to pose your challenge, e-mail Jimmy. If you win him over, he'll make a correction and notify the person who asked the question. Comments violating this policy will be deleted. Widespread violation of this policy will result in the comments box being turned off for such questions.

Posts subject to Rule 20 will have a "20" at the bottom of the post.

Rather than argue about things we do NOT know, can we just see if we can't do what Jimmy asked and offer some ideas for a man who is looking for work? I can't help but wonder if it is a rule violation to argue about if it is OK for him to NOT serve as a priest... That was not the question, we don't know about the case, and frankly it is none of our damn business.

A guy with enough integrity to remain in the Catholic Church when many former Catholic priests join other churches, go renegade, or simply QUIT the faith, is asking for some help here.

Can some of us get off our moral soapboxes and help a man with ideas on how to earn a living?

Esau

Simple Sinner:

Can some of us get off our moral soapboxes and help a man with ideas on how to earn a living?

If you took time to check out my original posts, you would see that this is what I was attempting to do.


Rather than argue about things we do NOT know

That's the point of my Feb 16, 2007 1:58:35 PM:

That is:

Also, how can you pronounce such negative, harsh judgments upon certain ex-priests when, in fact, you hardly possess any information that would justly characterize them as such?

J.R. Stoodley

I'll just trow in my two cents.

It is certainly possible to misdiscern your vocation, or at the very least to rationalize your way into rejecting your true vocation.

I have heard many times including from EWTN that it is possible to loose your original vocation. Presumably this is through a changing of circumstances in your life resulting from missing your chance to do what God wanted you to do. When this happens you get a new vocation.

Therefore, if a man is called to be a priest but instead he gets married his vocation is no longer to the priesthood, but to marriage.

Similarly if he was called to marriage and becomes a priest or brother he is now called to that way of life.

The person will never reach the same level of holiness or accoplish as much good doing something other than what God originally intended him for, but this certainly doesn't automatically damn him.

In a case like the one described, no matter what the man's original vocation once he was a priest he presumably was called to be a holy priest. Now that he is laisized he is either called to go through the process of getting his priestly facilities back (if possible) or to live out his life as essentally a layman (though spiritually he is a priest forever) as best he can. If he has entered a valid marriage he is called to be a good husband. If he has entered an invalid marriage he is called either to end it or get it validated.

In any case we should be charitible and try to understand and sympathize with his difficult situation.

David B.

Some Day,

Who said this?

"Incidentally, I know that I've got some cantankerous readers who are concerned about the number of departures from the priesthood, but this combox is not the place for finding fault or discussing those issues. We don't know what may have led to the gentleman's departure from the priesthood, and there can be perfectly legitimate reasons for doing so, just as there can be perfectly legitimate reasons for ending a marriage."

Answer: Jimmy Akin, the OWNER of this blog.


When you're invited to participate in a discussion, follow the rules. If you want to disregard Jimmy's rules and follow you own, create your own blog.

P.S. Yes, A priest is always a priest. However, this man did NOT mention being married, so how can you say that a priest who just refrains from using his priestly faculties is an apostate? You're still very young. Treat your elders with Charity, Understanding, and Counsel.

A Simple Sinner

Esau,

In fact I did read your original post. It wasn't your posts I was rather taken aback with. I am not sure why you would assume that to be the case.

Marion (Mael Muire)

"But having validly recieved ordination disapates those doubts because the Sacrament imposes character and also will give vocation if it lacked before, because the Sacrament is just that powerful."

I continue to be astonished at the way folks just make things up as they go along.

Really! It's absolutely hilarious!

This guy is a hoot.

Esau

Simple Sinner:

Esau,

In fact I did read your original post. It wasn't your posts I was rather taken aback with. I am not sure why you would assume that to be the case.


My apologies, Simple Sinner.

I hope you can understand why I had to respond to certain posts on this thread that, for one reason or another, was casting such negative light on an ex-priest without any actual just cause whatsoever.

At the off-chance that this person here is actually a good priest who, though he may have left the ministry, is merely struggling to remain a faithful Catholic; I felt the need to stand up for the poor guy.

Admittedly, we do not have any evidence at all who this guy is and what he is all about.

However, even a regular human being struggling to make ends meet should, nevertheless, have the help of those who are able to provide such assistance; most of all, the help of those who consider themselves "Christians".


We must never forget the Final Judgment that takes place as described in Matthew 25:

Matthew 25:45-46
45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.


God bless.

Some Day

I did my research.

I still find it very rare that a priest should leave with a valid reason.

But it is possible, without breaking the first commandment.

The arguement I proposed ( priestly vocation is conferred upon ordination if it was lacking before.) has some asterisks.

First, it is applied to a member of a previous non-priestly order who will now have priests, in which long time members are asked to be priests.
Which in any case, obediance makes miracles.

Second, what is true is that the sacrament itself can sustain the priest in his ministry even if did not have the vocation.
In essence, vocation is optimal, but without it, it is still possible to be a holy priest, because the sacrament provides the graces.

Sorry if I was a bit stern.
I still believe that most people leave religious lives for reasons other than misdicernments.
In fact I believe a saint once said ( and don't take this as an attack to marriage!!!)
that marriage was the sewer for weak and timid vocations.
But none the less, I argued something without the full extent of the information, therefore wrongly.
Sorry.

anonymous this time

SomeDay--

here's the thing about your nameless saints. Saints don't make theology by virtue of the fact that they are saints. They don't make canon law by virtue of the fact that they are saints. Canon lawyers, and ultimately, the pontiff, (of which I am neither) and theologians (one of which I am not)do the work of theology and canon law. You are simply making things up, based on what I assume you've taken in good faith from some misguided youth minister,retreat leader, etc.
You seem to have a heart for the Church, that's great. You clearly love our Lord, that's great too.

BUT, please, read! think! inform your eager intellect with some actual, basic theology. Everyone who aspires to offer theological opinions needs to do this. Start maybe with Frank Sheed's classic "Theology and Sanity." Maybe read (very carefully) the documents of Vatican II. Perhaps Ratzinger's "Introduction to Christianity," and some introductory philosophy. Maybe try Sullivan's "Introduction to Philosophy."

You have a great mind and a great heart. PLEASE train your mind to more clearly think about and articulate the truth.

JD

i concur!
Some Day- your heart is strong!

Tim J.

Keep in mind, folks, that with SomeDay (and others as well) we are all trying to communicate through language and cultural barriers about things that are ultimately inexpressible. They are mysteries. A bit of misunderstanding is to be expected.

Some Day

...trying to communicate through language and cultural barriers...

I am not alerted or annoyed in anyway, but this type of thing I've heard before.
Is it that you think that I don't know English?
Like I said, I'm not worried, is just that I don't want a misconception. I am first an English speaker, more so than a Spanish speaker, and even more so than a Portugese speaker, and now soon, a French speaker as well.

Its just that I think in English for simple, practical stuff, and Spanish and Portugese for more elevated stuff like theology and philosophy.
As for history, it is bilingual.
So if anything, the barrier is when I learn something in one language, and then translating it in an accurate manner. I just want to make that clear.
Blessings on the 1st Sunday of Lent!

Esau

Is it that you think that I don't know English?

Some Day:
I think you may be misunderstanding Tim J.'s comment.

There does seem to be a cultural barrier, at the very least, if not, some form of language communication barrier.

For example, there have been comments that you've posted that, at least for me, have proven difficult to understand due to how you've expressed it.

Now, I can understand the difficulty in translating certain ideas and concepts into English since there are actually some words that may exist in our original language which cannot be directly translated into English. In fact, even if you attempt to do this by means of a substitute word (or via several words), it still fails to express the idea behind the original term utilized in the source language since there really is no 1:1 relationship between that foreign word and the English word(s) used as a substitute to express it.

In other words, don't take it so personally.

It's all babel to me. (and I don't mean the movie)

Some Day

I guess.
It is just that I don't want any underserving pity.
I dominate English a lot better than the other two languages. It is just I grew up learning about religious stuff in Spanish and now Portugese. But for complicated stuff, like the Summa, I need to read it in English, do to the vocabulary and style.
But well thanks for the response anyways.

Esau

That's understandable.

If you watched Raymond Arroyo's interview with Cardinal Ratzinger, there was a point during the interview where he answered one of Arroyo's questions in Italian rather than in English, and I believe it may be because he deemed it much more advantageous to express the ideas in his answer more sufficiently in Italian than in English.

Charles Los Angeles

As a priest in Southern CA, I am amazed at the fact that many of our priests feel stuck or trapped. If someone were to offer some of our guys a $60.000 job ..... many would be gone in the morning. Many are tired of being poor and obedient!

Tim J.

"Many are tired of being poor and obedient!"

Sad, if true.

Jen

HUman resources is a great area for someone coming from this line of ovcations :) There is a book by a former monk and head of HR at a very large company - maybe insurance? can't think of the name right now. Pray for help from st Joseph the worker

Jen

Is WEORC faithful to the church? certainly marriedpriests is not.

Fr. John Peter

I am a former priest too. I took up studies in social work. I am teaching MSW students in a reputed college. I am also involved in social work. I have satisfaction of life. I hope and pray that the Good Lord will use me to do the Gospel Ministry. If everything goes well I might rejoin my priestly ministry as well.

Fr. John Peter

Everyone who read my above mail please say a small prayer for me and for other ex priests. Thank you and God bless you.

David B.

Prayers from here as well.

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