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February 02, 2007

Comments

J.R. Stoodley

This will reflect badly on all priests who come from poor countries and are better off here than if they had not become priests and thus would not likely have had the opportunity to stay here.

In my experience though such priests have been the most faithful I have encountered.

Anyway, what a horrifying situation. The guy must have been a good actor, to have talked himself into and through seminary and a decade of service in the Church.

Realist

And the results of the priest shortage continues. Either downsize the priesthood with technology or increase the pool by opening the priesthood to all adult members in good standing.

With respect to the teens of the parish, it would be a good opportunity to emphazize the the need for sexual self-control and the ways to maintain that control and the consequences if they do not. A good starting line would be, as our Aunt Katherine used to say, if you cannot control it, slam a window on it.

Jared

Two thoughts here, assuming the story to be true:

-Thinking like the enemy now: whom would I (if I were the adversary) attack with temptations etc. the most? Would I not attack a priest of God--a soldier on the front lines--with the power to forgive men's sins in confession and thereby an instrument in snatching otherwise-damned souls from my grasp?

-Again thinking like the enemy: what better place to enmesh a sort of "double agent" (if you will)--a soldier who is truly consecrated to myself (remember, as the enemy) than within the ranks of the priesthood? What better way to discredit the entire organization (to many) than to place a "bad apple" in the Church's "bushel basket?"

bill912

As father Benedict Groeschel points out, the worst it has ever been for the priesthood was Holy Thursday, when 100% of the priesthood failed our Lord: 1 betrayed Him, 1 denied him with words, 1 (St. John) denied Him with silence, by not speaking up at His trial, and 9 deserted Him. It has never been that bad since.

Edward

Yikes, this man worked in my diocese at one point!

Barbara

"Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave and cut off his right ear..." ~ Jn. 18:10

Granted, the event was before Pentecost, when Peter received the Holy Spirit, however, it points out one of Peter's many faults. Priests are not immune to temptations, in fact they are even more susceptable to them.

Mary Kay


natural to turn to God - iffy if immature faith
Jimmy, much wisdom in your post.

Some thoughts off the top of my head. Those who taught me crisis therapy said that the Chinese character for the word 'crisis' means both danger and opportunity. It's an opportunity (first 4 to 6 weeks) for either growth to higher level or downhill to lower level.

Echoing Jimmy, obviously first thing is to validate their feelings.

Jimmy hit a very important point about broken trust. That has to be huge in this parish right now.

But this is the second time for the parish, as the preceding priest had allegations or charges of financial impropiety. It's a good thing this is not a 20 post, 'cause I'm about to break one of da rulz. Jimmy had said it's "natural to turn to God." I'm not sure that that's the first reaction, given a parish where there is a "weak and immature faith" and a second major hit.

So I think that one of the first things is to say that it IS good to turn to God. That the reason Jesus suffered and died was to heal situations like this.

It's certainly not the first time a betrayal of trust has happened, as several people have mentioned above with Judas and apostles.

It may be helpful for the teens to know of other instances of justice done, and of the importance of praying for the offender. And of course, prayer for the victim(s).

Also good for them to know that questions don't need to have an immediate answer. That it will take time to sort out their reactions and answers to questions take time.

But the immediate thing when confronting evil, before any intellectual understanding, is prayer. By that I mean praying the rosary. They don't have to understand today how praying the rosary makes the biggest difference, just that it does. Explanations of spiritual dynamics can come later.

I'll certainly keep all in prayer today.


Mary Kay

ooooops! I should've proofread so I erase the notes to myself reading Jimmy's post. (walking away with red face)

Mary Kay

one last post is that the rosary is probably one of the most effective spiritual weapons against evil.

Joy Schoenberger

It seems this foreign priest was not the only one who used the priesthood for his own ends. In my own home state of Virginia, another case has recently been revealed.

Get the Story

Barbara

ooooops! I should've proofread so I erase the notes to myself reading Jimmy's post. (walking away with red face)

Don't feel bad. There's been more than one time that I had wished I could edit my remarks.

Ed Peters

I really, really hesitate to bring this up here, but we really, really, have to watch our language about evil, as in: "First, evil is a real."

No, it's not. The EFFECTS of evil are real, and SATAN is real, etc., but EVIL is not "real"; it is an absence (of good). There are numerous pastoral implications to getting this right.

Doubtless, those are for another time.

amihow

Evil is real vs. evil is the absence of something good is a real problem for me historically.

Tell someone that is betrayed that the betrayal, although not material, is not real.

Would appreciate more on this from the different perspectives.

bill912

Betrayal is the absence of loyalty. The effects of the betrayal are real.

Mary Kay

Evil is discernible and not just as an absence.

Esau

"First, evil is real."


Ed Peters makes a good distinction in his:

The EFFECTS of evil are real, and SATAN is real, etc., but EVIL is not "real";

What I find, though, most of the time is that when a person says "EVIL is real" what they really mean is "SATAN is real".

They just somehow end up using the words "EVIL" and "SATAN" interchangeably in their mode of communication, which results in the former being said most of the time rather than the latter, which some would find more accurate.

Elijah

Isn't an absence real? If not I'm going to tell my professors that my absences aren't real and cannot therefore be held against me in any way.

Tim J.

I think it's true that many people use the word "evil" to substitute for "Satan" without even realizing it.

So, postmoderns are too sophisticated to believe in Satan, but Evil seems palpable enough to them that they want to name it.

Mary Kay

Question before I head off for the rest of the day (be back tomorrow):

Is the wind real? Or just the effects of the wind?

Esau

So, postmoderns are too sophisticated to believe in Satan, but Evil seems palpable enough to them that they want to name it.

I was going to draw attention to this fact as well; that there are folks such as these who would use the term "Evil" over "Satan" precisely because they believe the former as being something that actually does exist versus the latter -- although the latter would be more in keeping with reality from our perspective.

Also, there are people who, to be politically-correct, purposefully use the term "Evil" instead of "Satan" due to these and other folks out there who similarly deny the existence of Satan but do acknowledge the existence of "Evil".

Slowboy

Arise from Darkness: What to Do When Life Doesn't Make Sense (Paperback)
by Benedict J. Groeschel

caine

The more you ponder the fact that a priest is ordained to make present the Son of God in the most humble and vulnerable of forms - its much easier to understand that Satan's assault on them is his number one strategy. The insult to the pride of the devil - that a filthy creature of the earth is allowed to hold the Almighty between his fingers - has to be a singular focus of hatred.

That's why it's important to resist the temptation of dismissing "bad" priests outright. Their weaknesses are the interstate highway by which the minions of hell seek entry into the church to destroy it.

Despair is the fruit Satan wants to harvest, and we have to increase our prayers (for this priest, and all the rest) so that the divine virtues grow instead.

Esau

Caine,

Great post there!

pseudomodo

I don't know...

This all sounds like some kind of severe mental breakdown on the priests part. Just my thoughts

Ed Peters

Ok. Use the example of a hole in a shirt. The effects of the hole are obvious, palpable, discernible, and a bunch of other words. But what we are discerning is the ABSENCE of integrity in something good. If evil were "real" I could somehow, even metaphorically, remove it (the hole) and put it somewhere else.

Of course, I can't do that. I can disturb the integrity of another shirt, but I have not "transferred" the evil from one shirt to the other.

This important for many reasons, but among them, is notion of "fighting evil" has to be very carefully nuanced. You can't fight a hole, you cxan only fill it.

You can't fight "evil" you can only fill the void with charity (or truth, etc depending on circumstances.)

Esau

Ed:

That was a rather thoughtful and meaningful post there!

I wished you'd participate more often and put up more posts of a similar nature.

Conievou

So...if evil is not real then could you say that God made everything, and that God made everything good?

This "evil" distinction may help in explaining creation to my children.

Ed Peters

thx esau. time permitting, etc.
conievou: YES! bingo.

mk

Ed, it's more than an absence. There's an active form of evil that's more than absence. But drat you, why'd you pick today when I don't have the time to think it out that it deserves?

Tim

Father George is my priest. In fact, he was my favorite priest....

This has been a hard week dealing with the fact that a man whom I had the normal affectionate feelings one has for a priest they admire would commit such a monstrous act. Shock and dismay.

Fr. George seemed by all appearances to be a man of God- sounds ironic at this point to write that, but many of us appreciated and yes, loved him. There was no indication that I know of that he was capable of this devilry. He came across as warm, loving, wise and charming. He constantly preached on God's love and the pursuit of holiness, the centrality of Jesus to the spiritual life. Ugh- it's surreal.

I wonder if mental illness is involved. It's just so out of character....

Thank you, Jimmy, for such a thoughtful post. Those are very, very good thoughts. He was captured today (maybe yesterday) in Arizona. Pray for us at Our Lady Of Las Vegas (I help out at RCIA), for Michaelina, his victim and for him for full and complete repentance.

rsps

I heard a report that when the woman started praying for her life the priest 'suddenly' stopped his attack, apologized and said he was going to kill himself.
It made me wonder if the man is possesed.

Dan Hunter

For anyone looking for an orthodox Catholic Church in Las Vegas.
There is a Catholic Church at 1575 E.Windmill Lane.
Mass times are Sundays at 10 and 12 am
Mon and Tues.at 8 am
Wed.and Sat.at 6PM
Holy days of obligation at 6pm
This is a solid Catholic Church with no violent clergy and no abusive of the liturgy.
Any woman who wants to be a secretary there will not have to fear for her very life.
God bless you.

Dan Hunter

The name of the Church is,Our Lady of Victory.

Mary

There's an active form of evil that's more than absence.

No, the active form of evil is the deliberate choice of a lesser good over a greater good.

Ed Peters

Mary is clsoe, but "active form of evil" is a metaphor for "active choice to do evil"

Jared

Barbara: I'm not sure that the incident with Malchus points out Peter's faults. If anything, I'd say that it might point to a certain desperate courage, albeit a form of courage uninformed by the Spirit. Peter's fault in this incident was that he didn't understand that Christ needed to die, making his action not intrisically wrong but more ill-informed. In almost any other circumstance and with a merely human teacher (not one who is truly Man AND truly God), his actions would have been comendable.

Yvonne

For Tim J.

Thre can be no effect without cause. The effects of the wind are "real" because the wind makes them so.

Ed S

"... but deliver us from evil. Amen" How is this petition explained in light of the above discussion? I've been told that the correct petition should be for delivery from the evil one? If this is true, then evil is an adjective and not a noun, and I would understand. But then why isn't the wording "evil one" in the Our Father? I would really appreciate some one's explanation. Thanks!

Esau

Ed:

I've been told that the correct petition should be for delivery from the evil one? If

Take a look at the Greek for this in Matthew 6:13; it is better translated as "evil one" than just merely "evil" due to the definite article that's present:

του πονηρου

του
the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

πονηρου
hurtful, i.e. evil; figuratively, calamitous; also (passively) ill, i.e. diseased; but especially (morally) culpable, i.e. derelict, vicious, facinorous; neuter (singular) mischief, malice, or (plural) guilt;

However, I believe Jimmy could provide a more literal translation.

Mary Kay

No, the active form of evil is the deliberate choice of a lesser good over a greater good.
Tim, prayers for you and all in your parish. I can barely imagine how difficult it must be.

Mary, I was referring to something different than a person's deliberate choice. In Renzo Allegri's biography of St. Padre Pio, he says that even after St. Padre Pio left, "earthenware pots and wooden chairs would break apart without anyone touching them." That's the sort of thing I'm referring to as an active form of evil.

Ed P, your comment about not being able "transfer" makes me think this is a leftover from a previous discussion, to be continued in next post...

Leigh

It's very likely that mental illness is involved. Having endured a close family member's struggles with bipolar disorder, I can testify from personal experience that mental illness can lead a person to say and do things that are so completely out of character for them as to make them seem a totally different person.

Re the question of whether evil is real, Ed Peters is using "real" in a technical sense from Neo-Platonic philoosophy that is as different from our everyday use of the word "real" as a physicist's use of the word "work" is different from our everyday use of the word "work." Instead of meaning "imaginary," it means something that does not represent an Ideal, but rather represents the lessening or absence of an ideal.

Mary Kay

Ed P, let me address your example of a hole in a shirt. Nice image, but not accurate of the entirety of evil. Your phrases If evil were "real" and quotation marks around "fighting evil" are of a piece with your stated understanding of evil as an absence.

But..... Romans 12:21 speaks of conquering or overcoming evil, not "filling in" an absence. (The NAB translation is "Do not be conquered by evil, but conquer evil with good.")

Since I do not have Jimmy's training and experience in Biblical languages, I have to "cheat" by referring to the back of Strong's Concordance. The root of the word conquer (overcome in KJV) means to "conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory" from derived from the verb to "subdue." Not a whiff of "filling in an absence." Rather, very much fighting as a battle.

But that's not what I started out to say, so now I have to re-collect my thoughts and get back to my original thought.

Mary Kay

Leigh, he may very well have a mental illness and yes, it happens that people with a mental illness can do something "out of character." But it's not a characteristic of bipolar disorder to commit violence.

Whenever something like this happens, there is frequent mention of some variation of either must have been or could be mentally ill. That reinforces in the public's mind an equating of mental illness and violence. It does a great disservice to those with mental illness, either becoming an obstacle to seeking treatment or how the public treats people who are often some of the most vulnerable in society.

But I don't want to go there at the moment.

As long as I'm on a tangent, what I noticed from the linked article is that Chaanine said "that that the only way he could get out of his home country was to become a Catholic priest." The priests I know don't use that as the reason for their vocation.

Ed Peters

Mark Kay: metaphor is fine, as long as it does not obscure fundamentals. Scripture does that a lot. Etc...

Mary Kay

Ed P, I wondered if your comment about not transferring a hole in a shirt was a leftover from a previous discussion (which I really do not want to start up again, only finish what was left over). The following is based on my guess that it is. If I'm mistaken, let me know.

I'd like to preface with saying that back in the pre-historic days before digital cameras, when photographic film was developed, the result was called a "negative image." That is, dark areas appeared light and light areas appeared dark.

From the previous discussion IIRC a specific difficulty was the idea of an "evil eye" and similar ideas. To quote from the book,

"(The evil eye) does not come about, as many think, by believing that some individuals cause bad luck by just looking at you; this is nonsense. (emphasis mine) ... it presupposes the will to harm a predetermined person with the intervention of demons." p. 132

So let's look at the flip side. Sacramentals such as holy water, blessed candles and the rosary are objects used as aids in devotion. In Why Do Catholics Do That?, Kevin Johnson says, "A sacramental produces grace, through the intercession of the Church, indirectly."

So there's the idea of using an object to ask for God's blessing on a person. (That's the general idea. You or one of the multitudes can nitpick that after the point.)

Holy water and candles are immediate to a particular person or area. But the effects of the rosary can be applied over time and space. An example is praying for the souls in purgatory.

With that established, go back to the photographic "negative image" and you can see that an object can also be used to will harm to a person, even across time and space.

That's the essence.

Let me know if that clarifies the leftover.

Mary Kay

Ed P, are you saying that Scripture obscures fundamentals? Not sure how to read your last post.

Sailorette/Foxfier

On the reality or lack thereof re: evil.

I see it as light and dark-- obviously, evil is the dark. Darkness *does* exist, although it's simply the absence of light. Absolute darkness is really, really rare. You can fight the darkness by spreading the light. Maybe it's an old comparison because it works so nicely....

On the hole in a shirt example, that's easy: you fight the absence of fabric by sewing it up.

Oh, and I don't use "Evil" to mean "Satan"-- I say "Evil exists" because I know a great many people who believe, to use the first example, that their is no light or dark, only shade.

David B.

Mary Kay,

I *think* Ed Peter meant that Sacred Scripture uses metaphor 'a lot'.

Mary Kay

David, that could be. But even where Scripture uses metaphor, I don't see what that has to do with Romans 12:21. It would be difficult, if not impossible, to portray that verse as a metaphor.

Skygor

This is why it is very important to pray for Vocations, on all its levels. As this post shows priests in the West carry this heavy burden that has only appeared since the 80s. Then there is the age-old burden of being a real social profession, as shown by the complaints in the other current thread on Sisters potentially reading homilies instead. As Lincoln said, you can keep some happy some of the time, but never all the people all the time, which sadly is interpreted as spiritual sloth. Then there are those seeking a dedicated religious vocation, which I know firsthand is never about current scandals, celibacy, marriage, or children, but central to fulfilling God's Will, which is a very intimidating when one approaches that threshold.

Not only for them but us as laity, who are to be signs of God. How many remember that marriage is God calling us to love another, and be a sign of His love for His Church? How many remember that we are to be holy as well? This was highlighted in another thread where on members pastor admits to few seeking him for spiritual counsel, and another being "apathetic" when he "turns out" those who are unwilling to begin a prayer life.

Realist's point of opening the priesthood to all is a blatant fallacy. It is open to all, along with the call to holiness. Few people have the *explitive* *deleted* to do so and -not- be an unintentional alternative form of exercising the First Amendment right.

Mary Kay

Skygor, I was going to say that you were mind-reading because today's homily was on praying for vocations, especially for the priesthood. I wonder if that was the topic for homilies today.

cholo

Sexual abuse and violence by Catholic priests is quite common throughout the world. In the eyes of the law, it is FELONY sexual abuse. I remain hopeful that he will be found guilty and imprisoned. It may be worth the time to check out if he commited similar crimes in other parishes. You can count on the prosecution checking out this nut's history. He will most likely be raped and battered by other inmates in prison. In my opinion, prayer does not help a criminal. As for your teenagers, they have read about and viewed extreme violence on TV and quite possibly on a daily basis. Young people are resilient and they will find a way to understand this terrible situation in their own way. Just let them talk and ask questions, don't lie to them and support any feelings that arise.

bill912

"Sexual abuse and violence by Catholic priests is quite common throughout the world."

Can you cite evidence to support your accusation, or are you just giving vent to bigotry?

"In my opinion, prayer does not help a criminal."

God has a different opinion, according to the prophet Ezechiel, but what does He know?

"...support any feelings that arise."

*Any*? I'll pass on supporting feelings of bigotry like yours.

bill912

There. I've confronted 2 evils: Calumny and Bigotry. I feel good. (Cholo, of course, by his own words, *must* support my feeling.)

cholo

http://www.snapnetwork.org/ This page and Bishop Accountability.org may be of interest to some bloggers.

bill912

SNAP is an anti-Catholic group. That explains everything. But, hey, anti-Catholic bigots have to get their bigotry reinforced somewhere.

bill912

Getting information about the Catholic Church from SNAP is like getting information about Jews from a Nazi website or getting information about blacks from a Ku Klux Klan website.

Mary Kay

Sexual abuse and violence by Catholic priests is quite common throughout the world

Cholo, do you also go on school sites and post that "sexual abuse and violence by teachers is quite common"?

Second, do you consider an average of four percent to be "quite common"? That's not to minimize the pain of those on the receiving end of the abuse, but you do a disservice to the other (average of) 96 percent.

cholo

Hi Jimmy,
I truly believe that you are concerned about the teenagers. I also believe that you and other reasonable adults will manage this awful situation just fine. Answer their questions to the best of your ability and don't lie to them and they will work throught this terrible situation in a way that will probably amaze everybody. Trust them to do the best that they can do. Hang in there Jimmy....you make lots of sense. Best, Cholo

Mary Kay

Cholo, that's quite the non-answer. Are you interested in a discussion or just doing a driveby inaccurate generalization?

There's a dog owner who has recently walked down my street, letting his dog poop in other peoples' front yards and not cleaning it up. Your posts so far remind me of that irresponsible dog owner.

The Questioner from Vegas

Thanks Jimmy for giving such a quick response to my question. It really did help, hearing advice from someone who wasn't emotionally involved.

I wanted to post a follow-up on how it went this weekend. The teachers seemed more upset than the students. We opened by asking if there was anything interesting in the news this week. Everyone laughed which broke the ice. Then followed about 20 minutes of questions which focused mostly on practical matters "how's he doing?" "what will happen now?" "how's the lady, has she come back to church since" and procedural questions about both U.S. and church law. Some of the kids still seemed to be in denial, which is ok because so were some of the teachers. I was proud of the kids, though. When I brought up that they needed to be able to separate the actions of one man from the truth of their faith, they seemed surprised that anyone would leave the church over the incident. Thank you (almost) everyone for your comments and prayers.

Dan Hunter: Thanks for the info, but OLLV *is* an orthodox parish .

Tim the poet: Proud to see a fellow parishioner on Jimmy's blog. You said exactly what I've been feeling. I love him too.

Mary Kay

Q, thanks for the update, I wondered how things went. Sounds like a great group of kids (and teachers). Will keep in prayer.

cholo

HEY JIMMY....I'M NOT SURPRISED AT THE OUTCOME! HOORAY!!! WHEN YOU HAVE FAITH AND TRUST THAT KIDS WILL FIND THEIR WAY AND COPE ADEQUATELY WITH TRAUMATIC EVENTS, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WONDER HOW THINGS WENT. TELL YOUNG PEOPLE THE TRUTH AND ANSWER THEIR QUESTIONS TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY, AND THEY WILL THRIVE. WHEN A PRIEST IS ACCUSED AND PROVEN GUILTY OF SEXUAL ABUSE, IT IS DIFFICULT FOR THE FAITHFUL TO KEEP AN OPEN MIND. THANKS FOR ALLOWING ALL INTERESTED FOLKS COMMENT ON YOUR BLOG! I KNOW THAT MANY OF MY OPINIONS ARE UNPOPULAR. STILL, NEVER LIE TO THE YOUNG PEOPLE AND THEY WILL MAKE THIS WORLD A BETTER PLACE FOR ALL OF US! GO DUDE! CHOLO

Mary Kay

Cholo, there's no need to shout.

If your sole purpose was to thank Jimmy for his fine job, why did you not mention it until your third post?

Your first, second and fourth posts are cheap shots with a lot of uninformed prejudice.

It's not that your opinions are unpopular as much as inaccurate.

You came across as a troll. However, another possibility occurred to me that you might not be a troll.

Since the tendency to misjudge genuine concern as somehow as a reflection on teens' ability to deal with a difficult situation happens often with teens, it occurred to me that you might be a teen. If so, just say so and we can have an actual discussion.

Dan Hunter

Questioner,
That is great news,I did not know that there was another Church in Vegas that offers the Tridentine Mass.What are the mass times for the Classical Rite?
God bless you.

The Questioner from Vegas

Dan Hunter:

I'm sorry, I should have done a little research first, but there are so many churches in Vegas. I did not realize that by "orthodox" you meant schismatic. I love Latin, and while I wish there was both Tridentine and Latin Novus Ordo Masses offered in the diocese, I don't find love of Latin to be a sufficient reason to go into schism.

Dan Hunter

Questioner,
His Eminence Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos of Ecclesia Dei has just said that the SSPX are not in schism.
Look to the Rorate Caeli site and see where he makes this statement.
His Eminence has also declared that the mass they offer is valid.
God bless you.

Mary Kay

Dan, Questioner has his own concerns right now. Why would he spend energy on your agenda?

Show some common sense. Q didn't come asking for anyone's opinion on the Tridentine Mass, so let this one rest.

David B.

Dan,

JP2 declared that SSPX *is* schismatic. A formal declaration from a pope trumps a cardinal's opinion.

bill912

"A formal declaration from a pope trumps a cardinal's opinion."

Not if you don't want it to, David B. I know that's true; I heard it in the Cafeteria.

Dan Cat'o ninetails Hunter

A formal declaration from me for you whiny wimps to call me at previously mentioned number trumps your hatred of discipline.
Lets get it awn.
Well hewwo again Mawy Kay how doodly doo.
Its always fun getting your dander up ha,ha ha ha.
I am sure you will get all bent outta shape and start snap snap snappin.
I love it though.You are funny when your mad and then you try to get instuctive.
Don't ever loosen up,your so fun just as you are.
Via con scruffy.

Inocencio

Dan,

Does your lack of humility and charity come from attending the Tridentine Rite? You are a poor witness for the Tridentine Rite.

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

bill912

Jimmy, I think it's time to ban the bum for his rudeness, especially to Mary Kay.

Dan Cat'O Ninetails Hunter

Yes Innocencio,the Tridentine Rite is the Devils own composition and its very being should be summarily crushed out of existence by the heel of the Theotokas.
I am truly a messenger of Gehenna and I am desirous of the downfall of many.
Lets all chant together in thrice unison,
"I shall not Serve"."I Shall not Serve"I Shall not Serve".
Yes,you have caught on to my true intent.It is about time you made a statement on this.
Verbum Tekum Kali Yug.

Tim J.

Methinks it likely that the obnoxious poster is Dan's adolescent son.

David B.

Well, "Dan Hunter's" son has little respect for women. If I were the kid's father, I'd use his "Cat'O Ninetails" on his own butt.

David B.

hmm... Meant to say 'buttocks.' I don't want to be crude, like Dan's 'son'. ;-)

Cholo

Hi Nine Tails....what is a Mawry Kay? How come she easily angered? Has she ever been truly instructive? Tee hee hee, tee hee hee! You sure know how to tha ole Mawry Kay from SNAP.
Cheers.....C

Cholo

Nine tails....You sure know how to tease that ole Mawry Kay from SNAP. She is probably not a real Snapster! Cheers!

bill912

Make that both bums, Jimmy.

francis 03

Agreed. I'd be sad if JA.O was permitted to be a recruiting tool for groups whose unity with the Church is, at best, highly questionable. And recruiting people under circumstances like this is ecclesiastical ambulance-chasing, pure and simple. Over the line. Way over the line. If this church truly weren't in schism it wouldn't put up with stunts like that. Questioner, I greatly admire you for the charity of your response, especially under the circumstances.

francis 03

PS: Everybody, regardless of his faith, thinks his own parish/church/place of worship/way of life is orthodox. So it strikes me that the meaning of the term has to be contextual. So unless a poster provides some context of his own, using the term "orthodox" to mean something other than Jimmy would mean strikes me as a careless use of language at best, and an outright lie at worst.

Cholo

I don't know how many Catholic priests there are in the US but if 4% have been sexually abusive of children and vulnerable adults, that's quite a number of traumatized Catholic boys, girls, and vulnerable adults. As the details of this case unfold, there will likely be enormous pressure on your diocese to disclose protected information. If the national media swarns your community and attempts to interview individuals at your parish, how do you plan to manage the media? Trust that whatever you disclose to the media might be twisted to misrepresent your views. If you don't believe that your priest friend is guilty, be careful when you speak with reporters, especially if you sense that there is a feeding frenzy and the goal is to convict in the press and contaminate the jury pool. Once again, trust that the teens may not be as weak in faith as you might think; and, that they are quite capable of weighing the facts and arriving at their own internal balance while remaining faithful Catholics. Teens are not pushovers. The teens and kids will make create a better world. Best, Jimmy

Cholo

I mean to sign off with Best to Jimmy A., Cholo

Jimmy Akin

RULE 1 WARNING: Folks in this thread (and all threads) need to be polite with each other. The deliberate taunting that has gone on here will get folks banned if it continues.

Mary Kay

Francis, I'll have to remember the phrase "ecclesiastical ambulance-chasing."

Cholo, are you interested in a reciprocal discussion? Or are you simply letting off steam?

Cholo

No Mary Kay. I experience you as abusive. Best, cholo

Mary Kay

Cholo, that's unfortunate that you perceive me that way. Thanks for responding.

Cholo

Tim....I would guess that your favorite priest Fr. George is mentally ill. There are probably many investigators gathering what they call the facts of the case. Some of what happened will come out at his trial. Tim, he may feel relieved that he has been captured and locked up in jail. It may be the only safe place for him at this time. If this is the first time that he has ever harmed another person, maybe he will be locked up only for a short while. Then, placed on probation and allowed to live within a sheltered community where he can receive long-term rehabilitative care. You never quite know what will become of a person who has commited such a serious crime. I sure hope that the victim will receive all the care that he needs. I'm also interested in how the Archdiocese will view this incident over time and whether or not there is a pattern of similar behavior at other parishes. Check with your archdiocese, they may have a counselor available for you to speak with to process your concerns. Good Luck!

bill912

Warnings are wasted on some.

David B.

If I were Cholo's father, I'd take myself out to the shed and and exact some decipline on my own backside, as punishment for raising my child to act like a world-class bozo.


Mary Kay, you deserve respect from these jerks.

Joseph D'Hippolito

Jimmy, I wonder how the bishop is going to handle this situation. Will he aid the authorities or will he hide this priest from them?

Given the hierarchy's general response to the clerical sex-abuse crisis, that question is, sadly, a legtimate one.

I'm sorry that Michaelia didn't have a gun. If she did, and was legally registered, she should have brought it to work with her every day -- and she should have used it when the priest attacked her. Legally, she would have been justified.

Yes, I know that sentiment is going to horrify practically all of you but let's get real, here. The only way that the Church Establishment is going to take the laity seriously when it comes to such abuse is if the laity fights back with methods that the Establishment cannot defuse through legal or bureaucratic chicanery.


Joseph D'Hippolito

As father Benedict Groeschel points out, the worst it has ever been for the priesthood was Holy Thursday, when 100% of the priesthood failed our Lord: 1 betrayed Him, 1 denied him with words, 1 (St. John) denied Him with silence, by not speaking up at His trial, and 9 deserted Him. It has never been that bad since.

Why do I find this nothing but sentimentalist, blasphemous hoo-hah designed to do nothing more than to keep Catholics in their little comfort zones by providing false comfort that distracts them from the evil in their midst?

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of people exploiting the doctrines of apostolic succession and "alter Christus" to defuse legitimate criticism about clerical immorality and episcopal malfeasance. Those doctrines never justified such behavior and, more importantly, weren't designed to!! Yet Catholics seem to be too stupid by half to understand that. Why? Are we so infatuated with ourselves and our identities that we can't see plain truth for what it is? And if that's true, then what does that say about Satan's influence in the Church?

MJ

"A priest who doesn't strive for sanctity is a very dangerous creature!"

Mary Kay

David and Bill, thanks.

Inocencio

Joseph D'Hippolito,

Yet Catholics seem to be too stupid by half to understand that. Why?

If only we were as smart as you, right?

Are we so infatuated with ourselves and our identities that we can't see plain truth for what it is?

If we were as smart as you we would realize you decide the truth for us.

And if that's true, then what does that say about Satan's influence in the Church?

I would ask that question about your own life.

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

David B.

Joseph D'Hippolito,

"As father Benedict Groeschel points out, the worst it has ever been for the priesthood was Holy Thursday, when 100% of the priesthood failed our Lord: 1 betrayed Him, 1 denied him with words, 1 (St. John) denied Him with silence, by not speaking up at His trial, and 9 deserted Him. It has never been that bad since."

How is this "blasphemous hoo-hah"? I don't understand. Then again, I guess I'm one of those 'stupid by more than half' people, so it is impossible for me to contemplate the wisdom of the great Joseph D'Hippolito.

Esau

HIPPO:

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of people exploiting the doctrines of apostolic succession and "alter Christus" to defuse legitimate criticism about clerical immorality and episcopal malfeasance.


Who has done that here or anywhere in the Church???

As Jesus said:

Mark 9:41-42
41 ¶ (9-40) For whosoever shall give you to drink a cup of water in my name, because you belong to Christ: amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.
42 (9-41) And whosoever shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me: it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck and he were cast into the sea.


Again, bad, bad hungry, hungry Hippo!

Esau

Hippo:

Make sure you take note of verse 41 as well as 42.

Keep in mind that there are innocent clergy out there as well as the bad.

This has always been the case not only amongst the Apostles of Jesus but even in the Old Testament.

The hierarchy that got established, it’s composed of sinners just like in our times today, who engaged in serious wrong-doing. If you look at 1 Samuel Chapters 1 and 2, you’ll see that at the time the high priests – a man named Eli was very indulgent of the priests (who happened to be his sons back in that day because they had a hereditary priesthood) and he was very indulgent of his sons who would engage in a variety of different things that could be classified as embezzlement, sexual harassment of the women who served at the Temple (I mean, it says that they slept with the women who served at the Temple), and Eli did not take effective action in dealing with these priests.

So, that’s a fairly notable analogue to the situation that we’ve had recently where some bishops failed to take effective action to deal with priests who were sexual predators. If you had been a pagan at the time of this incident, and if you had judged the truth of Israel’s religion based on the conduct of its priests, you probably would have stayed a pagan and I would have missed the true religion.

I’d also urge you to think about that in Jesus’ day, the hierarchy of the people of God at that time was also engaged in significant immoral behavior. In fact, it was the Chief Priest who had Jesus himself put to death. But, despite that fact, Jesus (and Jesus also had a lot of other criticisms to make of them but in spite of that) said to them don’t follow their example but do what they say (talking in this case particularly about the Pharisees and other kinds of religious leaders in his day). They still had authority that needed to be respected even if they themselves totally failed to live up to their own standards.

Joseph D'Hippolito

Innocencio and David B., you are not far from the Kingdom of God...;D

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