Enter your email address to receive updates by email:

subscribe in a reader like my facebook page follow me on twitter Image Map
Podcast Message Line: 512-222-3389
Logos Catholic Bible Software

« What Kind Of Coke I Drink | Main | B16's Book Out Spring 2007 »

December 14, 2006

Comments

Fr. John Pecoraro

Yes! There is a Santa Claus

Thomistic

I feel like a kid at Christmas!

BillyHW

TLM Real Soon Now™.

brian John Schuettler

It's not in the proposition, it's in the execution...stay tuned.

Brian Day

A "Universal Indult" will be a good thing. But let's not get ahead of our selves. Let's see what the document actually says before getting too excited.

Arieh

I'm dreaming of a Tridentine Christmas, just like the ones my grandparents used to know....

I have been praying my Rosary to tatters over the freeing of the TLM!!!

whosebob

Pope St. Pius V, pray for us; pray for Pope Benedict XVI and so help him to make the most God pleasing decision regarding the TLM and the reform of the modern Roman Rite; pray for bishops and priests and "liturgists" throughout the world and so help them to humbly and faithfully follow the instructions and lead of the Holy Father; pray for us lay persons in the Latin Church so that we might grown in devotion and faithfulness as we assist at Holy Mass, whatever the rite, and that charity and patience might rule in our words, attitudes, and actions.

David B.

Amen!

whosebob

It is my great hope that a liturgy as beautiful and traditional as the one in the following video might in my lifetime be celebrated at my parish and many, many other parishes throughout the USA and the whole world: Missa Cantata for the Last Sunday after Pentecost.

Note that there is some helpful info and links in the video's description which is provided to the right of the video-display widget (you may need to click "all >>" to see the whole description). The links will point you to texts of the Latin prayers in the TLM and English translations of the same. I am not a member or supporter of the SSPX, but all the same, I think this video has real value in demonstrating the beauty of the Traditional Roman Rite of Mass. If you don't speak French you may want to skip past the homily which is about 11 minutes long, though much beautiful footage of the parish's architecture is displayed during that time.

Deacon Danny

Gloria in Excelsis Deo!

We at St. Patrick's in New Orleans have been praying for this for many, many years. I only hope the Holy Father is strong in this. Maybe many young people will be able to see a well done High Mass at Easter.
The Holy Spirit is sweeping the church clean and a new dawn is breaking.

Rob in Maine

We’ve had the blessing of a Tridentine Mass here in the Diocese of Maine since the first indult was given and
the Tridentine Mass, as I have experienced it, needs some wireless microphones! Can't hear what the priest is saying to follow along in the 1962 Missal. Just because the Tridentine Mass was established in the 1570’s shouldn’t mean we have to exist as it was 1570. I’ve attended more vibrant Masses at the hospital chapel with the volunteers and the retirees from the assisted living home across the street.

I think it would be great to see the TLM 'free' again. However, I don't think there is going to be a great rush in MANY parishes and places to embrace it. I suspect in many areas, the Mass said will continue to be Novus Ordo, with 'happy-clappy' music. complete with many 'senior ladies' acting as Eucharistic ministers dressed in stretch pants--or mini skirts. (Don't laugh--I've seen both!)

MenTaLguY

Hopefully the competition from Tridentine Masses will motivate priests to start celebrating the Novus Ordo more properly too. It's not that the Tridentine Mass is immune to liturgical abuses (an issue long before Vatican II), but it's harder to get away with screwing it up. The Novus Ordo done right is a beautiful thing in itself -- when anyone bothers.

Dan Hunter

Will this really make a big differance insofar as the implementation of the Tridentine Mass?
In my Diocese the Bishop and the majority of pastors disaprove of most forms of Catholic Tradition,Gregorian chant,Exposition,and Benediction,Stations of the Cross,not to mention the Tridentine Rite.
Does anyone know if there will be anything addressing this matter in the Motu Proprio?
I feel most Bishops and pastors in the USA are of this mindset.They disobey the Holy Father in many things He promulgates,why should this be any different?
God bless you all

Truefaith

Sorry, I forgot to post my 'name' to the above comment!

Esau

Hopefully the competition from Tridentine Masses will motivate priests to start celebrating the Novus Ordo more properly too. It's not that the Tridentine Mass is immune to liturgical abuses (an issue long before Vatican II), but it's harder to get away with screwing it up. The Novus Ordo done right is a beautiful thing in itself -- when anyone bothers.

MenTaLguY,
You just honed into one of the very reasons why I used to attend the Tridentine Mass some years ago until the priest that used to say it unfortunately retired (good for the priest though since he was fairly advanced in years, but unfortunate for those of us who enjoyed attending his Masses).

Back then, if I had actually found a church that properly celebrated the Novus Ordo Mass, it wouldn't have been the case that I would've actually attended a Tridentine Mass (so, in some respect, I'm glad I didn't).

The point is, it seemed more often than not that a Catholic church was NOT actually celebrating the Novus Ordo Missae the way it was intended to be celebrated.

Esau

They disobey the Holy Father in many things He promulgates,why should this be any different?

Dan Hunter:
Not to be cynical, but this is perhaps the very reason why I'm not so overjoyed with the news.

With more and more dissension apparent in the ranks of the Catholic Church in America, no doubt, there will not be the acceptance such that the Tridentine Latin Mass will actually make it back into the main.

MenTaLguY

By the way, it's probably misleading to refer to the Tridentine rite as "The Latin Mass", since Sacrosanctum Concilium requires:

Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites. (36.1)

Additionally, restrictions on the Tridentine Mass would seem to be be contraindicated by the same document:

Lastly, in faithful obedience to Tradition, the Sacred Council declares that holy Mother Church holds all lawfully acknowledged rites to be of equal right and dignity; that she wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way. (4a)

More letter, less "spirit", please. Not that the letter is as forceful as one might like sometimes:

The Council also desires that, where necessary, the rites be revised carefully in the light of sound tradition, and that they be given new vigor to meet the circumstances and needs of modern times. (4b)

I'm left with the distinct impression that someone read the original draft, thought, "Oh no you don't!", and inserted the "when necessary" and "carefully in the light of sound tradition". But even that sentence is good if followed obediently and in good faith. It's not as if the more forceful instructions have been observed any better.

Inocencio

Maybe we should use this combox to offer suggestions on ways to help our parishes implement the Tridentine Rite and/or ways to have the Pauline Rite more faithfully celebrated.

I suggest preparing ourselves to be ready to volunteer to help our parish priests. Perhaps if we have resources to offer and are willing to help teach at our parishes, our pastors might be more receptive.

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Esau

I suggest preparing ourselves to be ready to volunteer to help our parish priests. Perhaps if we have resources to offer and are willing to help teach at our parishes, our pastors might be more receptive.


Innocencio,
It depends on the type of priest you might have at your parish.

If it's one of those rogue so-called 'Catholic' priests who actually loves to 'rock-n-roll' during the Novus Ordo Mass, then fugetaboutit!

Inocencio

Esau,

"We do nothing. God does everything. All glory must be returned to Him. God has not called me to be successful. He called me to be faithful." -Blessed Mother Teresa

"We too can respond to that call with faithfulness and zeal of Mother Teresa and then we too can help change the face of our world." -Sr. M. Sabita

Again, it was only a suggestion. Most priests only hear complaints no matter what they do. Rather than point out the mess it might be better to offer to help clean it up. And you are correct some priest might say no thank you but we won't know unless we offer.

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Esau

Good point, Innocencio.

Actually, it is better to try than sit by passively, doing nothing to improve the situation.

Sorry to be a 'wet blanket' so-to-speak.

I guess I was just so disappointed regarding a personal encounter with such clergy whose only regard it seemed was to "look cool" for the young folks at Church while committing atrocities against Christ in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

But, that need not apply to all cases since there may, in fact, be those clergy out there who perhaps may actually lend a willing ear to certain sound suggestions.

As mentioned before, not all clergy are scoundrels -- just the 1 out of the every 12!

Dan Hunter

Esau,
I agree with your statement about the rock and roll priests.
At my parish the pastor has fired my mother as choir director because she wanted to give pride of place to Gregorian chant with the scola in the liturgy.
Innocencio,during and after her dismissal,for adhering to Romes command to keep music sacred,she attempted to help the pastor understand The Churches Traditions and Gregorian Chant.He wanted to have nothing to do with it or her.
He told her,and I quote,"I want all music to be hot off the presses and preferably from Haugen and Haas".
He then told her"I never want to hear from Jeanne Hunter again".
Since then,3 years ago,My mom has been trying to gently help him with music liturgy and mailing him statements by the various Holy Fathers,including Pope Benedicts pronouncements on Sacred music.
This pastor repeatedly rejects her assistance.Many pastors have been offered such help but they still maintain their own agenda,which is not in accordance with Jesus
God bless you all.

Esau

At my parish the pastor has fired my mother as choir director because she wanted to give pride of place to Gregorian chant with the scola in the liturgy.

Dan Hunter:

I sympathize with you!!!

Gregorian chant not given pride of place, are you kidding me?!?!?!

What, like those hyped-up, disco worship music they seem to play at these Masses should be given greater honor than SACRED MUSIC THAT'S A PART OF OUR CATHOLIC HERITAGE!!!!

That pastor has serious issues, if you ask me!

Inocencio

Dan Hunter,

God bless your mother for her faithfulness.

I would guess we have all experienced these type of situations and feel the same sort of sadness that our Blessed Lord felt when He was ignored. Charity will prevail, even if it is not in our lifetime here on earth.

The quotation from Blessed Mother Teresa is, I think, the right approach.

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Catherine L

We at St. Patrick's in New Orleans have been praying for this for many, many years. I only hope the Holy Father is strong in this. Maybe many young people will be able to see a well done High Mass at Easter.

Hi, Deacon Danny. I received my First Communion at St. Patrick's in New Orleans. I would love to attend a Tridentine Mass there. Keep us posted as to when this happens.

Scott W

Of course none of us happy about the prospect of this indult expect liturgical reform overnight. But just like a pebble starting an avalanche...

John

So let me get this right. The only difference between what we have now, where less than 50% of the diocese even have 1 indult, to the so called universal indult is that a priest can, with no permission from his Bishop, go ahead and say the Traditional latin mass. Why would he really want to do that? If he loved the Traditional Mass so much would he not be in the FSSP or even SSPX, SSPV or CMRI?

This is another farce. If Paul VI could overnight as my parents have told me introduced the New Mass with no advance warning, except a few handouts at the back of the church for a month leading up to the debacle of 1970, then the Pope could do the same today

Esau

This is another farce. If Paul VI could overnight as my parents have told me introduced the New Mass with no advance warning, except a few handouts at the back of the church for a month leading up to the debacle of 1970, then the Pope could do the same today

Why am I not surprised????

I was merely counting the minutes...

Brother Cadfael

John,

If he loved the Traditional Mass so much would he not be in the FSSP or even SSPX, SSPV or CMRI?

One could have many reasons for not joining FSSP that have nothing to do with a preference for a Traditional Mass. As for why one would not join SSPX, SSPV or CMRI, the answer should be fairly obvious, in that some people would rather be Catholic (defined in this instance as being in good standing with the Church) than look Catholic.

Esau

If he loved the Traditional Mass so much would he not be in the FSSP...

John:

Just in case you didn't know --

The Fraternity of St Peter (FSSP) is a Society of Apostolic Life of Pontifical right, founded in 1988 by His Holiness Pope John Paul II. The priests of the Fraternity offer the traditional Latin Mass daily (Roman Missal of 1962) and provide pastoral care for the faithful using the traditional sacramental forms loved by the Saints and so highly prized by the Church.

...

The Fraternity was founded on July 18, 1988 at the Abbey of Hauterive (Switzerland) by a dozen priests and a score of seminarians. Shortly after the Fraternity’s foundation and following upon a request by Cardinal Ratzinger, Bishop Joseph Stimpfle of Augsburg, Germany granted the Fraternity a home in Wigratzbad, a Marian shrine in Bavaria that now lodges the Fraternity’s European seminary.

...


And to think JP II and B16 were so much against the TLM!

Dan Hunter

John,
The same thing happened to my parents in 1970.
No warning,blindsided them,hit them low and took the legs out from under them like chainshot.
This process is not pastoral,so therefore should not be replicated for the reinstitution of the Pian Rite.But an agressive reeducation program is indeed necessary and quite possible.
The laity were surprised before,and most thought it unwarranted.The Church can move forward and make the correction in a relatively short amount of time but with,unlike in the late 60's,pastoral care.
God bless you all.

Dan Hunter

Catholic News Service has just broken its media blackout of the official announcement of the Motu Proprio.
His Emminence Cardinal Medina has announced The decree will be issued shortly for the Freeing of the Tridentine Rite without the permission of the local bishop.Deo Gratias

Romulus

Catherine L:

St. Patrick's in New Orleans is an indult parish, so there's a Latin Mass in the traditional ("Tridentine") rite every Sunday at 9.30. This Christmas, midnight Mass also will be in the old rite. Please pay us a visit, as Mass (in both new and old rite) is celebrated there with great splendor and reverence.

JoAnna

Disclaimer: I was raised Protestant and converted to Catholicism at age 22. I have never been to a Tridentine Rite mass.

That being said...

If I'd grown up with the Tridentine Rite, I could see the familiarity being a draw, but for me, who has never heard the Mass in anything but English, the whole debate about the Tridentine Rite vs. Novus Ordo leaves me rather puzzled. What is the appeal of going to a Mass said in a different and completely incomprehensible language? I don't think I'd enjoy the Mass as much if I had no clue what the priest was saying the entire time.

I am NOT trying to be a troll, and perhaps I just need to experience a Tridentine Rite mass for myself before I "get" the whole controversy. But for now, I enjoy understanding the liturgy, and I don't see the appeal of going to a service where I wouldn't understand it. *shrug*

Jordan Potter

"But for now, I enjoy understanding the liturgy, and I don't see the appeal of going to a service where I wouldn't understand it."

There's nothing unreasonable in your point of view.

But your words do remind me of something I read the other day at Father Zuhlsdorf's weblog, "What Does the Prayer Really Say?" He mentioned one time when he offered a Mass in Rome where other priests were offering Masses at nearby altars. So as not to interfere with the other Masses, Father spoke quietly for most of the Mass. At the end, a lady complained to him, saying something like, "Father, you were speaking so quietly that I couldn't hear what you were saying." Father replied that he had to be quiet for the sake of the other Masses being offered at the same time, and added, "Besides, most of the time I wasn't talking to you anyway."

So, it's nice for us to be able to overhear what the priest is telling God, but it's not necessary, just as it is not necessary for anyone to be present at a Mass but the priest.

Jordan Potter

"Catholic News Service has just broken its media blackout of the official announcement of the Motu Proprio."

What media blackout at Catholic News Service? CNA is always late in reporting news.

Jordan Potter

Another thing: although only this week did we get "official" reference to the Motu Proprio, reliable, knowledgeable Catholic officials and bishops and priests had already gone public about it weeks ago, as one could see by checking Catholic News Service's website. So, this is official confirmation, but it's not the first time mainstream Catholic media have reported on the Motu Proprio.

Dan Hunter

JoAnna,
The Tridentine Mass is not just in a foreign language.It is a drastically different liturgy than the one you are used to.
The words used in it all transcend the banal and mundane and point us to the true essence of the Mass:Christ's Sacrifice.
I am 39 and just began,two years ago, to attend this lovely Mass.I was born in 1966 and had not grown up with,or experienced it at any point in my life before 2004.
The official language of the Church is Latin.Therefore we are trully worshiping as the Church has worshiped since the year 400.
Latin for the most part is an unused language outside the Church and science,so it locks the Doctrine or teaching of the Church into its Liturgy without the meanings changing as modern languages change.
I,and you can easily follow the priest offering the Holy Mass by praying along in a missal,purchased at any religous store that sells the missal of 1962.This is the last year that the Tridentine mass was changed.
On the left side of the missal is written the Sacred Latin and on the right is the vernacular,English for Americans.
It is infinitly more gorgeous and uplifting than the new mass.It makes you feel like the veil of time has been lifted and you step into eternity,neither past or future,but an eternal sacred present.
After five Tridentine mass's I culd follow along perfectly and was calm.
God Bless you,and you can find out where there is a Tridentine mass close to you by logging on to "Ecclesia Dei" and looking for the mass locations.

Mary Kay

Joanna,

If I'd grown up with the Tridentine Rite, I could see the familiarity being a draw, but for me, who has never heard the Mass in anything but English, the whole debate about the Tridentine Rite vs. Novus Ordo leaves me rather puzzled. What is the appeal of going to a Mass said in a different and completely incomprehensible language? I don't think I'd enjoy the Mass as much if I had no clue what the priest was saying the entire time.

I am NOT trying to be a troll, and perhaps I just need to experience a Tridentine Rite mass for myself before I "get" the whole controversy. But for now, I enjoy understanding the liturgy, and I don't see the appeal of going to a service where I wouldn't understand it. *shrug*

the whole debate about the Tridentine Rite vs. Novus Ordo leaves me rather puzzled

Joanna, your puzzlement is understandable. The controversy isn't over one specific aspect, but has been complicated with several factors.

The language, Latin or the vernacular is just one factor. Indeed, the Novus Ordo Mass can be said in Latin.

There were many changes, which were not implemented well. Nonetheless, the Novus Ordo is the normative Mass, the ordinary Mass.

Peoples' dissatisfaction with the implementation is a large factor. The indult Tridentine was originally granted for those with a preference or attachment, I can't remember the exact wording off the top of my head, for the Tridentine Mass. One is not "better" than the other. (which will draw a lot of fire, but that involves the question of the Holy Spirit guiding the Church)

"Getting the controversy" is useful only in leading to a deeper understanding of Mass.

Don't get too caught up in the controversy. It is wonderful that you've come to the fullness of Catholicism and deepening of faith.

John

Esau

FSSP was only created to counter the growing number of priests who were joining the SSPX and happened right after the excommunication of the Great Archbishop Lefebvre, who will in a generation or two be a saint as St Anathasius was during the Aryan heresy

It was not due to their "love" of the Traditional Mass, but a political ploy

If they loved it so much-are you not aware that B16 has never even performed this mass? He has worshipped towards mecca with Moslems, met with Rabbis in synagogues, met with schismatic orthodox, but has never ever performed a TLM in public at least

Figure that one out?????????

Mary Kay

not the "question" of the Holy Spirit guidance, but of accepting that the Holy Spirit guided the Church during Vatican II

Dan Hunter

MaryKay,
How do you define "better".
Thank you and God bless you.

Dino

When was the Latin Mass "abolished" as many of the reports state? As I recall, Vatican II simply permitted celebration of the Eucharistic Liturgy in the local, or vernacular, language. If Latin had been "outlawed" Popes of the last forty years were all in big trouble.

Esau

Disclaimer: I was raised Protestant and converted to Catholicism at age 22. I have never been to a Tridentine Rite mass.

What is the appeal of going to a Mass said in a different and completely incomprehensible language? I don't think I'd enjoy the Mass as much if I had no clue what the priest was saying the entire time.

JoAnna:

I'm glad you raised this.

On another thread, I tried to bring this up time and again to JV, knowing how other folks may actually view the TLM through today's lense, especially in terms of our young people and those coming from outside of the Church as well as those within who may not have such an appreciation for the TLM or who may actually find it very difficult to relate to due to its ancient elements.

Personally, for me, it is due to these same very ancient elements which make it ever uniquely precious, unburdened with all of today's innovations (with respect to how the rite is celebrated, its place in Church history, the Latin used which goes back to the 4th century when it officially became the Language of the Christian Church, the profound reverence observed within the rite, etc.); thus, why, to me, the TLM holds a place of great significance - especially since it's a part of our Catholic Heritage.

However, if the rite of Mass that would have continued unto this day was the TLM instead of the Novus Ordo Missae (which is the Pauline rite celebrated in the vernacular, which is the normative Mass of today), I am not so sure that there would have been the same great number of conversions into the Catholic Church that we're actually witnessing today from our seperated Protestant brethren and other non-Catholic neighbors, even Atheism.

Moreover, I would think that because of the very point that you've raised here, in terms of the number of folks exiting the Catholic Church today, that, instead, we might actually find even greater numbers leaving the Church because of the great difficulty many may experience in trying to relate to something as ancient and sacred as this had the TLM continued to be the normative Mass today. Today's society is too much set into a more fast-food, cater-to-every-taste, think-outside-the-box, go-for-what's modern, dispense-with-the-old, authority-is-bad, attention-deficient type of mentality, among other things, that having to deal with something like this in our modern world today, especially something that's in a different, not to mention, dead language, would actually stretch the limits of many folks out there.

Yet, this does not dismiss the fact that the TLM is a rite of Mass, regardless, and one that deserves the utmost respect; not to mention, a part of our long Catholic history.

The problem is that the reverence and respect that's actually observed in this rite of Mass seems to be wholly absent in the Novus Ordo in terms of how certain priests are celebrating the N.O. Mass these days. Remember, the Mass is not simply a worship service, as some Protestants would happen to be used to in their churches. It goes far beyond that; it is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass where in it, our Lord comes to us in the Holy Eucharist.

guest

Italics Off!

Esau

JOHN:

are you not aware that B16 has never even performed this mass? He has worshipped towards mecca with Moslems, met with Rabbis in synagogues, met with schismatic orthodox, but has never ever performed a TLM in public at least


B16 never celebrated the TLM????

What's the following then??

“There have been false alarms before, not least because within the Curia there are those genuinely well-disposed to the Latin Mass, those who are against and those who like to move groups within the Church like pieces on a chessboard,” a source told The Times. “But hopes have been raised with the new pope. It would fit with what he has said and done on the subject. He celebrated in the old rite, when Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2397919,00.html

Esau

JOHN:

I can give you more than just that --

Also, do you not even know that he has been a staunch advocate of celebrating Mass Ad orientem?

Ed Pie

Tridentine Mass Liberalization...

So they're not just trying to force inclusive language into the Latin mass?

Andrew

If they loved it so much-are you not aware that B16 has never even performed this mass? He has worshipped towards mecca with Moslems, met with Rabbis in synagogues, met with schismatic orthodox, but has never ever performed a TLM in public at least.

http://www.benediktxvi.ru/foto-pontifik/trident-foto.html

He celebrated the Old Rite many times publicly. Maybe that's why he was elected Pope? He did not worship toward Mecca, he prayed toward Jerusalem. "Pray always". Nice vestments too, if you look at the pictures from the link I provided!

Esau

http://www.benediktxvi.ru/foto-pontifik/trident-foto.html

He celebrated the Old Rite many times publicly. Maybe that's why he was elected Pope? He did not worship toward Mecca, he prayed toward Jerusalem. "Pray always". Nice vestments too, if you look at the pictures from the link I provided!

Great Link, Andrew!

Yeah, I agree, REALLY nice vestments!

Ryan C

"The official language of the Church is Latin. Therefore we are trully worshiping as the Church has worshiped since the year 400."

You mean how a particular part of the Church has worshiped, since liturgies in Greek and Arabic and Coptic are just as ancient, if not more so. In addition, there have been many developments since the year 400, as well as different rites even in the West (for example, the Sarum). That's why Pope Pius had to discontinue these other rites before consolidating the Tridentine.

"It is infinitly more gorgeous and uplifting than the new mass. It makes you feel like the veil of time has been lifted and you step into eternity,neither past or future,but an eternal sacred present."

Perhaps, subjectively to you, but actually this objectively true of any mass, Tridentine, vernacular, Byzantine, etc...One should be careful in mixing subjective appreciations of different rites with the unified sacramental reality of every mass.

Inocencio

John,

Why not let Pope Benedict XVI speak for himself about the Tridentine Rite and the FSSP?

Also the FSSP: Declaration of intention by the founders, 2 July 1988

"are you not aware that B16 has never even performed this mass?"

I would be really impressed if you admitted you were wrong. I am not holding my breath.

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Brother Cadfael

John,

Great Archbishop Lefebvre, who will in a generation or two be a saint as St Anathasius was during the Aryan heresy

If by "saint" you mean he will be in heaven, I hope and pray that you are correct.

If by "saint" you mean that he will be canonized by the Catholic Church, the Church is not in the habit of recognizing as saints those whose defining characteristics are disobedience and schism. As for me, I'll stick the late Holy Father you despise so much, the real "Great" John Paul II, and his successor.

And I would suggest that you study the life of St. Athanasius a little more closely, if you have that much trouble distinguishing him from a schismatic Bishop.

Mary Kay

Dan Hunter,
What part of One is not "better" than the other did you not understand?

Realist

TLM brings up a questions? How do you say "AARPyville" in Latin???

whosebob

Realist wrote: TLM brings up a questions? How do you say "AARPyville" in Latin???

May Our Lord bless you, Realist, and may the prayers of the Blessed Virgin help to draw you closer to the Sacred Heart of Our Eucharistic Lord.

I am age 30, born more than 5 years after the Mass of Paul VI became the normative Eucharistic liturgy for the Latin Church. I never assisted at nor watched on video a Tridentine Mass until three years ago. Since then I have made an independent study of the liturgy of the Latin Church -- from devotional, theological, and historical perspectives -- and I long for a return of the TLM at my parish and others throughout the world. I have a deep respect and appreciation for the Novus Ordo Mass, as the graces that flow from it (and theoretically every valid Mass of the Catholic Church) have transformed my life.

Yet, still I pray for the return of the TLM, and I'm more than three decades shy of AARP membership. What say you to that?

Tim J.

I'm at least a couple of decades from retirement age, myself (though I don't plan to retire), and I would welcome the return of the TLM, though I know very orthodox, devout Catholics who have found the TLM hard to follow and prefer a well done N.O. mass.

It could be just a matter of attending often enough to become accustomed to it. I know it took me a while to catch on to the N.O. mass.

I've never attended a TLM, but would like to.

The fact that it irritates aging hippies is just a bonus.

John

Are you sure that is a true traditional latin mass with priests standing ready to hand out the eucharist to the lay persons in their hands? Where is the altar rail? I see nothing there except something in Greek or whatever saying he is performing the Traditional latin mass

This is a farce-Sorry

John

Brother said:

"If by "saint" you mean that he will be canonized by the Catholic Church, the Church is not in the habit of recognizing as saints those whose defining characteristics are disobedience and schism. As for me, I'll stick the late Holy Father you despise so much, the real "Great" John Paul II, and his successor."

Well I guess you have no knowledge of St. Athanasius, St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, and St. Joan of Arc, all of whom were excommunicated by the Pope and later canonized as the church realized that she erred in judgement and these persons were fighters for the faith

Do you actually thing JPII would lay his life down against Bin Laden if the need arose or would he go and kiss the koran and worship with him in a mosque to "Allah" and face mecca? I would think the latter

John

In the face of your enemies, in the face of harassment, ridicule, and doubt, you held firm in your faith. Even in your abandonment, alone and without friends, you held firm in your faith. Even as you faced your own mortality, you held firm in your faith. I pray that I may be as bold in my beliefs as you, St. Joan. I ask that you ride alongside me in my own battles. Help me be mindful that what is worthwhile can be won when I persist. Help me hold firm in my faith. Help me believe in my ability to act well and wisely. Amen.

Prayer to Joan of Arc for Faith

Inocencio

John,

First,

1951 June 29: Georg and Josef Ratzinger are ordained into the priesthood by Cardinal Faulhaber, in the Cathedral at Freising, on the Feast of Saints Peter and Paul.

So of course Pope Benedict then Fr. Ratzinger celebrated the Tridentine Rite.

Second, I challenge you to provide documentation that a pope excommunicated any of the named saints. I await you response and remind you that it is a necessary part of your faith to submit to the pope.

"Furthermore we declare, state and define that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of all human beings that they submit to the Roman Pontiff." POPE BONIFACE VIII Unam Sanctam (November 18, 1302 AD)

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Deacon Danny

For all interrested:

St. Patrick's in New Orleans offers the traditional Mass every Sunday at 9:30 AM. On the first Sunday of every month we have a full traditional High Mass with full choir, Deacon, Sub-Deacon, MC and servers. It is well attended and beautiful. If you go, get there 1/4 hour before Mass and take a Missalette from Ushers. It will Help. God Bless

bill912

"Documentation", Inocencio? Hobby Horses *are* "documentation"!

Esau

TLM brings up a questions? How do you say "AARPyville" in Latin???

Realist,
I, myself, am decades, decades, decades, decades away from Retirement, and so your generalization of folks who actually advocate it here is quite ridiculous, not to mention, pathetic!

Esau

Are you sure that is a true traditional latin mass with priests standing ready to hand out the eucharist to the lay persons in their hands? Where is the altar rail? I see nothing there except something in Greek or whatever saying he is performing the Traditional latin mass

This is a farce-Sorry

SO DECLARES POPE JOHN JTNOVA@OPTONLINE.NET!

Only he, and he alone, can declare what is a Traditional Latin Mass. Ratzinger is, as John declares, a farce since he did not satisfy HIS definition of a TLM!

HE IS THE ONE WHO BINDS ON EARTH WHAT IS TO BE BOUND IN HEAVEN ALSO, SAYS EVEN CHRIST, OUR LORD, HIMSELF!


P.S. You know, funny, but I seem to recall a story of a Catholic chaplain in the days of World War II who actually celebrated the Tridentine Mass outside of the Catholic Church. But, since there were no Communion rails where he celebrated it, he must have celebrated the Pauline Rite Mass (although, that rite wouldn't be in existence until years later)!

Realist

How do you say "Blog Hog" in Latin??

Brother Cadfael

How do you say "Blog Hog" in Latin??

Dunno. Blogus Harliem Davidsonium?

Esau

Harliem Davidsonium

Top of the Breed!

Esau

About what I said:

I seem to recall a story of a Catholic chaplain in the days of World War II who actually celebrated the Tridentine Mass outside of the Catholic Church.

Here's my picture -- and, look, no Communion rails!

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/pacificwar/255.jpg

Esau

JOHN:

About what you said:
Are you sure that is a true traditional latin mass with priests standing ready to hand out the eucharist to the lay persons in their hands? Where is the altar rail?


Here's another 'heretic' for you:

Using a canvas tarpaulin for a church and packing cases for an altar, a Catholic Navy chaplain holds mass for Marines at Saipan in memory of those who lost their lives during the initial landings. June 1944.

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/pacificwar/255.jpg

Esau

More heretics:

A Roman Catholic army chaplain celebrating a Mass for Union soldiers and officers during the American Civil War (1861-1865).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:American_Civil_War_Chaplain.JPG

John

Esau

I am asking Mr Akin to reprimand you for giving out my e-mail address without my permission

Your display of uncharity just goes to show your frustration in a one on one debate, as I have 1962 years of church history and teaching and you only have 40 odd plus as you despise anything pre Vatican II

IF I receive unsolicited e-mails I will be left but no choice to report you to the proper authorities as that is a federal crime if you did not know

Dan Hunter

Mary kay,
The part of "one is not better than another",that eludes's me is this statement taken in its entirety.
The quality of the Tridentine mass is clearly and objectively of a nature which is surpassingly more beautiful in its liturgy than the majority of Novus Ordo mass's.

John

I said as POPE he has never celebrated the Tridentine Mass nor did JPII

I would think for a man approaching 80 ordained how many years ago, the concoction of a mass that is celebrated today thank the Lord did not exist

Need I spell every word out for those who pick and chose what part of a post they want to use?

Once again, JPII worshipped with pygmies, Hindus, Jews, Orthodox schismatics and Moslems kissing their Koran, while B16 has done some of the same-but none have ever celebrated a TLM for all the world to see as pontiff

Clearer?

Inocencio

John,

You are the person who made your emai address available by entering it the email address box, so turn yourself into the proper authorities or remove it.

I am waiting for your documentation or for you to admit that you are wrong again.

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

David B.

John,

*sigh*


*sigh*


*sigh*

John

Esau

So you are going to compare a chaplain in the midst of WWII with "Cardinal Ratzinger" who if he really wanted to celebrate the TLM in proper form, could have found a church with altar rails, some actually still exist in Europe as I can attest, and not have communion standing in the hand to hand to hand.....but what the heck, they innovate the New Mass why not the TLM

Scary!!

John

Oh really Inocencio

I dont see your e-mail address nor do most care to publish others, since it is yellow as Jimmy has required, it is a required field and I put it in not thinking those as desparate as Esau would need to publish it

As far as documentation, I think I made myself quite clear on my posts above

Enjoy the Kumbaya New Mass, it has done wonders for the faith

bill912

Toldja, Inocencio.

Esau

JOHN:

Do you actually thing JPII would lay his life down against Bin Laden if the need arose or would he go and kiss the koran and worship with him in a mosque to "Allah" and face mecca? I would think the latter

Isn't it a fact that JP II actually risked his very life all those times he went to be close to his people, the people of God, the people of the Church, all around the world in all the visits he made to all of the Faithful?

Did the thought ever cross your mind the enormous risks to his very life in all these journeys?

Did it even cross your mind that it was because he, in fact, wanted to be so close to his people that he was nearly assassinated and killed?

Don't even 'dis' JP II. I knew him ever since I was young and the rosary he personally gave me I will forever cherish among my memories of him!

Don't you even dare condemn to Hell by whatever preposterous power or whatever bogus authority you believe to stand on, a Man of such immense Christian Faith and holiness such as he!

There is nothing you could ever do, even if you had multiple lifetimes, that could ever match even an iota of all his achievements, both the triumphs and the tremendous suffering he faced and undertook in his own life.

The Cross Pope John Paul II carried on his shoulders all through the dark and brutal days of the Nazis, through the oppresive period of Communist Poland, to the days of which, in the end, left him at such a mercilessly incapacitated state; I doubt that you could muster, even with all your strength, to bear on your own shoulders even a smidgen of all that suffering he endured in his life!

He was a Man of God no matter what your little mind thinks of him, and, in time, he will be recognized accordingly, if not here, most definitely in Heaven, by our Heavenly Father!

Dr. Eric

Does the Tridentine Mass really have to be in Latin? Could the same Rite be performed in the vernacular?

This could bring back the old Rite while maintaining the use of the vernacular that everyone is used to. I believe there was a switch to a dialog Mass in which the people responded instead of the altar servers. Couldn't that be done in English, Spanish, Tagalog, etc...?

Then it would be the best of both worlds.

Esau

JOHN:

and not have communion standing in the hand to hand to hand.....

You mean to say that just because there are no communion rails, this would actually prevent the priest from serving Holy Communion into the person's mouth???? What kind of reasoning is that???

Inocencio

John,

Oh really Inocencio

I dont see your e-mail address

Click on my name and you will see my email address just like yours, so you are wrong again.

nor do most care to publish others, since it is yellow as Jimmy has required, it is a required field

Wrong again! Look at how many poster have not put in an email address.

and I put it in not thinking those as desparate as Esau would need to publish it

You should remove it right now if you don't want people to have it.

As far as documentation, I think I made myself quite clear on my posts above

You have no documentation, none, that any of the saints you named were excommunicated by a pope. We know it and you know it. So you are...drum roll...wrong again!

Enjoy the Kumbaya New Mass, it has done wonders for the faith

And the Tridentine Rite has done wonders for your obedience and charity.

Take care and God bless,
Inocecnio
J+M+J

Esau

JOHN:

I am asking Mr Akin to reprimand you for giving out my e-mail address without my permission

Clearly, you do not know who I am or what I do.

John

Esau

One KNEELS at the Traditional Latin Mass as we once did for a millenia or two, we dont stand

It is clear in sacred scripture that give the foundation for kneeling is found in Saint Paul's Letter to the Philippians, 2:6-11, where we are told that, "at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father".

But unfortuatly Esau and the New Mass refuse to kneel when they pass the tabernacle, when the receive our Lord, or when they invoke his name

Esau

JOHN:

Your display of uncharity...

And what, your calumny of such holy men like JP II and B16 is not uncharitable????

Esau

One KNEELS at the Traditional Latin Mass as we once did for a millenia or two, we dont stand

It is clear in sacred scripture that give the foundation for kneeling is found in Saint Paul's Letter to the Philippians, 2:6-11, where we are told that, "at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father".

But unfortuatly Esau and the New Mass refuse to kneel when they pass the tabernacle, when the receive our Lord, or when they invoke his name


That's right!!!!

NO WONDER THE APOSTLES WERE ACTUALLY FOUND KNEELING WHEN THEY FIRST RECEIVED THE HOLY EUCHARIST!!!!

It actually clearly says so in all the accounts of Mark, Matthew and Luke:

Kneeling, the Apostles received the Body and Blood of Our Lord, Jesus Christ!

bill912

"But unfortuatly(sic) Esau and the New Mass *refuse* to kneel when they pass the tabernacle, when the(sic) receive our Lord, or when they invoke his(sic) name(sic)."

1) How do you know what Esau does?

2) How is a Mass capable of an action?

Inocencio

Bill912,

You are right we should not confuse John with facts.

I hope you are having a blessed Advent!

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Esau

"But unfortuatly(sic) Esau and the New Mass *refuse* to kneel when they pass the tabernacle, when the(sic) receive our Lord, or when they invoke his(sic) name(sic)."

1) How do you know what Esau does?

2) How is a Mass capable of an action?

Thanks, bill912.


By what he stated above as well as his mentioning "...I will be left but no choice to report you to the proper authorities as that is a federal crime if you did not know", clearly, he doesn't know me at all or what I actually do.

rsps

I wonder what the vow of 'obedience' means to pius the xer's? Or what the word 'magisterium' means to them. I often marvel at their ability to 'pick and choose' in order to define 'valid' and 'faithful' 'legitimate' 'papal succession' in their own terms. And kudos to the diocese of Lincoln Nebraska, by the way.

Esau

JOHN:

Esau ...*refuse* to kneel

Actually, it was JP II himself who taught me when I was young the importance of kneeling and praying to Our Lord...

I would be more circumspect about assuming things about me that you might not know for a fact.

David B.

John,

From DA RULZ:

"Commenters whose interaction on the blog consists principally of discussions of the same subject over and over (e.g., the writings of John Dominic Crossan, whether the pope is the pope, or the evils of Vatican II, the current rite of Mass, or a particular political figure or party--or any other single subject) are being rude. Conversation involves an ability to talk about more than one thing, not an obsessive harping on one subject. Say your piece and move on, per Rule 2."


'Nuff said.

John

Inocencio

I guess you did not know that Pope Eugenius IV did nothing to stop the trial and though it depends on who you believe, she grew up in a time of anti popes (John XXIII for one , the first one and possibly the second as history shall clear up for us) and refused to submit to the pope. Only 23 or so years later the pope at the time (a true pope) revised this excommunciation. The trial may not have been carried out by the church, but the Pope did not stop the murder of her, nor did it stop the excommunication of a holy man in the Archbishop who only wanted to worship as Catholics had done for centuries

There are hundreds of links on this so anyone I put up you will say is no good, so search for yourself

David B.

JP II himself excommunicated the leaders of SSPX.

John

If you are going to invoke the Last Supper as most irreverent Novus Ordo supporters do, we may as well say mass sitting around a square table (the DaVinci picture by most accounts are wrong) and have a sader and pass the eucharist from one person to another as the Protestants do at their masses as they pass the basket around, but was that not the intention of the New Mass, to become "More Protestant"?

Get over it, you always try to defend the irreverence of the New Mass by talking about the last supper-but Jesus and the Apostles were JEWS at this point in their lives and Our Lord had yet to even by crucified and rise! Learn your faith please

Esau

...you despise anything pre Vatican II

Despise anything pre Vatican II???

Have you even read anything I've written???

Also, it appears you, yourself, despise things pre Vatican II by your very disobedience to the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church and refuse to hear even Christ Himself, who gave authority to the Pope and his successors as enshrined in all the teachings of the Church going back to the days of the Early Church, even back to the time of Christ!

Inocencio

John,

I guess you did not know that Pope Eugenius IV did nothing to stop the trial and though it depends on who you believe, she grew up in a time of anti popes (John XXIII for one , the first one and possibly the second as history shall clear up for us) and refused to submit to the pope.

Wrong again!

From the Catholic Encyclopedia @ newadvent.org:

The first trial had been conducted without reference to the pope, indeed it was carried out in defiance of St. Joan's appeal to the head of the Church. Now an appellate court constituted by the pope, after long inquiry and examination of witnesses, reversed and annulled the sentence pronounced by a local tribunal under Cauchon's presidency.

But we have come to understand that facts mean nothing to you.

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Inocencio

John,

Here is your original comment:

"Well I guess you have no knowledge of St. Athanasius, St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, and St. Joan of Arc, all of whom were excommunicated by the Pope and later canonized as the church realized that she erred in judgement and these persons were fighters for the faith".

Admit you were wrong about the pope excommunicating them.

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

The comments to this entry are closed.

January 2012

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30 31