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December 06, 2006

Comments

Rosemarie

+J.M.J+

The more I hear about this incident, the more frightening it gets.

The Islamicists fully intend to use our freedoms and ideals against us. This was an blatant attempt to use Western "tolerance" and political-correctness to try to weaken our national security. I can't help but wonder what they all discussed at that Imam Federation conference. Is that where this stunt was hatched?

We are at war with extremely dangerous enemies, who want to either destroy or convert this whole country. Many have infiltrated our borders to weaken us from within. When will the US wake up and realize that we can't afford to be "politically correct" anymore? We can't say, "Oh, he's just different so don't judge him" - we have to judge people by their words and actions (which is different from saying, "All Muslims are terrorists," since that isn't true - only those who act that way are). If we don't develop a thick skin to false charges of "intolerance," we will end up either dead or living in a profoundly intolerant Muslim-dominated nation. If that doesn't scare you, it should.

May God deliver us from that fate! Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, pray for us!

In Jesu et Maria,

Tim J.

I don't know that these EYE-Maams were really trying to weaken security (their actions will doubtless have the opposite effect).

It seems possible to me that they might have been attempting to foment the same sort of Muslim discontent and rebellion IN THIS COUNTRY as can been seen in Europe. Trying to stir up the Muslim street in the U.S, in other words.

Lord knows, practically any excuse will serve to mount some kind of protest "over there".

I think - I hope - that Muslims in this country will see this for what it is and throw it back in the faces of these bronze-age bullies.

I would like to see the Muslim community collectively flying the good-old American Eagle at these bozos.

Francis DS

Let us keep remembering that these people are under the influence of evil Powers and Principalities.

They are victims...under Submission...under the control of the evil one.

They are God's creatures for whom Christ died as well.

Let us keep praying HARD for them.

But let's not be wimps in the meantime. Islamists must be taught Submission.


ELC

Come now, Jimmy. This is all wrong. The imams are sweet innocent victims. Just ask Alan Colmes. He'll tell ya.

Esau

I think - I hope - that Muslims in this country will see this for what it is and throw it back in the faces of these bronze-age bullies.

Tim J.:

It may likely serve the ulterior motive of these folks; that is, to show to American Muslims:

"See, your U.S. 'Crusader' nation really, in fact, hates you and Islam! Freedom of religion? Phooey! Therefore, take arms against the Crusaders for Allah!"

Of course, there'll be some crazy liberals out there who would probably go as far as to perhaps further this agenda (even if inadvertently) through the appearance of a call for civil rights.

Amy P.

I post about Islam often on my blog, most recently the flap with Fitness USA having to change is dress-code to appease Muslim clients and other things.

So what shows up in my combox? A diatribe about how "intolerant" I am and how I - a "Christian", as the commenter put it - should show respect for other religions.

But I am in agreement with everyone here who thinks this battle is far from over. A Christian in a Muslim nation would never get the same concessions as Muslims receive over here. Period.

And my mother-in-law knew a Muslim convert to Christianity who told her point-blank that Muslims will take over this nation by force or slow infiltration into our government and politics.

We must pray, but we must also be vigilant.

Brian John Schuettler

Chastisements take many forms. Could to be that the Lord is allowing the slow death of the West through the encrouchment of militant Islam in our midst? The so called "tolerance" that our secular culture demands will be the tolerance that kills us. The only answer is the renaissance of Christ centered worship and devotion together with large Christian families.
Mary pray for us, Christ save us!

Dr. Eric

Let us remember the fate of all the Christians in the countries that were overrun by Islam. The Patriarch of Constantinople has to be a Turkish citizen, even though the Greek Orthodox Church has far more members in the diaspora than in Turkey where the seat of the Patriarchate is. The Turkish government even closed down the only Orthodox Seminary in Turkey to try to drive out the rest of the Christians in the country.

We must be vigilant and make sure that the kinds of things that happen in Europe and the Middle East do not come over here or we'll suffer the same fate as our Christian brothers and sisters in the Middle East.

Esau

And my mother-in-law knew a Muslim convert to Christianity who told her point-blank that Muslims will take over this nation by force or slow infiltration into our government and politics.


Amy P:

You've brought up a good point here.

Folks neglect the actual mindset of radical Muslims, naively (blindly) thinking that an act of charity could actually win them over.

In the case of ordinary Muslims, this might apply, but not to your radical Muslims.

To them, it is a part of their very religion. It means everything to them to bring down the nation of the infidels by whatever means necessary. 9/11 proves this without a shadow of a doubt.

I believe it would be beneficial for some folks to actually conduct some research on radical Islam and see just how dear it is to them to perform these actions, which, to us, may appear horrific and Godless, but to them, acts of tremendous heroic virtue as well as a divine calling by the Almighty himself.


People need to understand that:

Where to us, martyrdom in Christ's name is an ultimate act that demonstrates the greatest love for our saviour (John 15:12-13) and in accordance to God's will until all are brought low before Him;

To them, martyrdom in Mohammed's name by manner of terrorism against the infidels, until all are brought under Islam, demonstrates the greatest love for Allah and his will in their perspective.

Until such time we actually grasp this understanding of radical Islam, we are at their mercy.

John

Maybe someone should ask Pope B16 who after being only the second pope in history to pray in a mosque (we all know who the first was in JPII), and actually saying the prayer to the "ONE GOD" as the Moslems do in denial of our Lord Jesue towards Mecca-maybe he can enligten us all now as the expert on Islam?????????/

JohnD

John,

There is only one God. That statement alone doesn't negate the three persons of the trinity.

Esau

The very reason why I brought up:

People need to understand that:

Where to us, martyrdom in Christ's name is an ultimate act that demonstrates the greatest love for our saviour (John 15:12-13) and in accordance to God's will until all are brought low before Him;

To them, martyrdom in Mohammed's name by manner of terrorism against the infidels, until all are brought under Islam, demonstrates the greatest love for Allah and his will in their perspective.

Until such time we actually grasp this understanding of radical Islam, we are at their mercy.

is to attempt to illustrate that all the things we hold so dear in Christianity and would fight for and would actually die for given the opportunity, these folks (radical Muslims) feel the same in their acts of terrorism against us (e.g., 9/11) and would never see them as the malicious acts that we would deem them to be because of the religious devotion that's inherent in it.

It is very interesting to note that the Christendom that once existed in the past was more aware of this than we are today.

This is clearly implied in Pope Benedict's Regensburg's quotation from Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus:

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

Esau

Maybe someone should ask Pope B16 who after being only the second pope in history to pray in a mosque (we all know who the first was in JPII), and actually saying the prayer to the "ONE GOD" as the Moslems do in denial of our Lord Jesue towards Mecca-maybe he can enligten us all now as the expert on Islam?????????


John:

What of the countless Christian martyrs who, whether it was at Rome during the Roman Empire, in the Middle East during the time of the Crusades, or elsewhere, ended up praying at such places (be it a Mosque or a Pagan Temple); would you actually accuse them of the same thing?

I assure you, they were praying to the God of Jacob, the Father of Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ or even to Christ Himself.

The fact that they were praying in such places doesn't automatically make them guilty of doing otherwise.

Bill

The Flying Imams would be a good name for a rock band.

Tom A

At the risk of going too far astray of the topic, I had thought that "The Flying Imams" was the new trapeze group at the Shrine Circus. Perhaps I need to read more news articles to stay up to date.....

John

John D

Catholics and Muslims do NOT Worship the same God, this was proven before Vatican II and before JPII made it fashionable to kiss korans (sorry I had to say that) and pray with them

They deny the Holy Trinity, the crucifixion and Jesus as our Lord. It is only the advent of Ecumania and the new Code of Canon Law that threw out prior to the Second Vatican Council, the forbidding of Catholics to take active part in non-Catholic worship. Canon 1258 of the Code of Canon Law (1917) legislated:

“It is forbidden to actively participate in the worship of non-Catholics.” (communicatio in sacris)

And also Canon 2316:

“One who cooperates communicatio in sacris contrary to the provision of Canon 1258 is suspected of heresy.”
In the conclusion of his teaching on false ecumenism, Pope Pius XI stated:

“Thus, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics.”


What Pope Bendict did along with JPII was heresy before 1962 and in my opinion is nothing short of shameful. This just adds more fuel to the fire and more proof that one has to question the true intention of the church today-is it to save souls as established by Christ here on earth or teach that all faiths are equal as Nostra Aetate teaches that Hinduism, Buddhism, Islamism, and Judaism are given explicit recognition, despite the fact that the Hindus and Buddhists worship false gods, that the Moslems deny the divinity of Christ, and that the Jews reject Jesus Christ as the Messias. In fact, Nostre Aetate actually goes to say that:

“The Catholic Church rejects nothing which is good and holy in these religions.”


How misleading can a document be to its flock.It is like saying to your children "I dont have any problem with you doing drugs and expirementing, just dont get hooked"

Shameful

Esau

John,

Please answer the question:

What of the countless Christian martyrs who, whether it was at Rome during the Roman Empire, in the Middle East during the time of the Crusades, or elsewhere, ended up praying at such places (be it a Mosque or a Pagan Temple); would you actually accuse them of the same thing?

Esau

John,

Your remark:
They deny the Holy Trinity, the crucifixion and Jesus as our Lord.

My question:
So do the Jews, but does that mean they worship a different God than we?

John

Esau

I have never heard of a Christian praying at a mosque-and if they did during the crusades they were obviously not approved to do so by the Pope

As far again the Moslems and us worshipping the same God, this again is a vatican II ecumania JPII invention and I will have to "cut and paste" right from the Quran:

Islam vehemently rejects the doctrine of God as revealed in Holy Scriptures.

Islam denies the Trinity:

"Certainly they disbelieve those who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve" (Sura 5:73).

“O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son” (Sura 4:171).

Islam denies the Father and the Son:

“The Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them" (Sura 9:29-30).

“It does not befit GOD that He begets a son, be He glorified” (Sura 19:35).

Islam denies the Deity of Christ:

“The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God’s apostle” (Sura 4).

“They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary” (Sura 5:72).

“And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right” (Sura 5:116).

“In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary” (Sura 5:17).

Clearly then, the Qur’an denies:

1. The Trinity;
2. The Sonship of Christ;
3. The Deity of Christ.

The conclusion is inevitable: the god of Islam is not the same God of the Holy Scriptures. Christians do not adore the same God as Moslems. On the contrary, the Qur’an explicitly denies the doctrine of Christ as taught in the Bible. Rather than adoring God with us, Moslems pray to their god that he might destroy us because of our faith in Christ, the Son of God. “The Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them" (Sura 9:29-30).


As far as the Jews worshipping a different God, as far as I recall from my days of catechism, we as catholics believe and worship and follow the OT as we believe our NT is just that so of course we and the Jews worship the same God


What B16 and JPII have done is sinful and has been condemned by Popes and Canon Law for centuries.

Mary Kay

John's hobby horse is out of the corral again.

Esau

As far as the Jews worshipping a different God, as far as I recall from my days of catechism, we as catholics believe and worship and follow the OT as we believe our NT is just that so of course we and the Jews worship the same God

That's just it, John.

The Jews also deny the Trinity as well as Jesus being the Son of God; and, yet, we worship the same God as they.

You were the one that said:
"Catholics and Muslims do NOT Worship the same God...They deny the Holy Trinity, the crucifixion and Jesus as our Lord."


And about your comment:
"I have never heard of a Christian praying at a mosque-and if they did during the crusades they were obviously not approved to do so by the Pope"

My exact question was:
"What of the countless Christian martyrs who, whether it was at Rome during the Roman Empire, in the Middle East during the time of the Crusades, or elsewhere, ended up praying at such places (be it a Mosque or a Pagan Temple); would you actually accuse them of the same thing?"


Here, I was speaking of the Christian martyrs of the past who were in these places (may be because they were captives???) and may have actually prayed (either in a pagan temple in Rome during the times of the Roman Empire or in a Mosque during the Crusades) to our Lord to help them in their time of persecution.

The point being, though they were physically in these places, their very prayer was directed to our Lord, nevertheless.

The physical place does not determine the intent and direction of the prayer or to whom they were praying, that is all within the individual themselves, that is, the very Temple of the Holy Spirit, was is said in the bible:

1 Corinthians 3:16-16
16 ¶ Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.


Also, I believe you should read on the Travels of Saint Francis of Assisi.

Esau

Going back to what I said above:

People need to understand that:

Where to us, martyrdom in Christ's name is an ultimate act that demonstrates the greatest love for our saviour (John 15:12-13) and in accordance to God's will until all are brought low before Him;

To them, martyrdom in Mohammed's name by manner of terrorism against the infidels, until all are brought under Islam, demonstrates the greatest love for Allah and his will in their perspective.

Until such time we actually grasp this understanding of radical Islam, we are at their mercy.

It is very interesting to note that the Christendom that once existed in the past was more aware of this than we are today.

This is clearly implied in Pope Benedict's Regensburg's quotation from Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus:

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”


Just now, the following was brought to my attention:

THE DIFFICULTY, TO MY mind, is figuring out why the Pope chose to cite this particular quotation from this particular nonentity? Certainly many popes have made similar statements about jihad and Benedict would have had a plethora of popes to quote from. It is therefore instructive to learn more about Manuel II Paleologus. He was, foremost, the antepenultimate emperor of the Byzantine Empire, the successor to the Roman Empire. At the time of his reign (1391-1425) the Muslim Turks had their sights set on the empire's capital of Constantinople. In 1399, Manuel traveled to England, France, the seat of the Holy Roman Empire, and Aragon seeking assistance from the various monarchs and courts. His visit was a complete bust. The split between the Greek Orthodox and Roman churches proved too wide.

Unless the Greeks agreed to join the Roman Church there would be no troops, no assistance, and the Greeks were not about to surrender their autonomy to Rome, not even to save the empire, their religion and their lives.

The result: Within a few years the Turks would take Constantinople, rename it Istanbul, and the Roman-Byzantine Empire would disappear forever from the earth. (In an ironic aside, Manuel's son Constantine, the last Byzantine-Roman emperor, was killed in battle defending the capital. Legend has it that he discarded his purple cloak and charged into the fray taking so many cuts and blows that his corpse was unrecognizable. Thus, the last Roman emperor was laid to rest in a mass grave.)

I suspect that the Pope was hoping to make the point that unless the West comes together, heals its divisions, and faces the threat of radical Islam together, it may face a similar fate as the Roman-Byzantine Empire. Naturally Benedict couldn't come right and make such a bald statement -- just as Benedict's predecessor Pope Pius XII had to be similarly circumspect during Nazi rule -- so he couched his remark in an obscure reference by a forgotten historical figure. The pope knew that he would have to apologize later for his statement, still he believed it important enough to risk it.


Given the fact that from the Pope's recent visit to Turkey where both Pope Benedict XVI and the Greek Patriarch of Constantinople have pledged to seek full unity between Eastern Christians, Eastern Non-Catholic Christians, and Catholic Christians, there will come, hopefully, in time, the full unity that will be required of present-day Christendom (if it even exists), and come out of this self-induced amnesia we have put ourselves in, in order to combat the real threats before us.

Maureen

Tertullian and other early Christian writers spend a lot of time pointing out that the arenas were not merely secular athletic stadiums, but rather a different sort of pagan temple. Christians were allowed to visit temples for business reasons (many temples were banks or places of trade and meetings), but not to actively participate in religious ceremonies there.

Countless martyrs prayed in the arena as they died for the faith -- some out loud, some silently. (Some silently because they no longer had tongues.) Many Christians also prayed silently in the temples, asking Christ to drive the demons from those places and bring pagan worshippers the light of Truth.

But all those people were doubtless syncretist heretics who were soft on Paganism. After all, they prayed in places of non-Christian worship.

Esau

Tertullian and other early Christian writers spend a lot of time pointing out that the arenas were not merely secular athletic stadiums, but rather a different sort of pagan temple. Christians were allowed to visit temples for business reasons (many temples were banks or places of trade and meetings), but not to actively participate in religious ceremonies there.

Countless martyrs prayed in the arena as they died for the faith -- some out loud, some silently. (Some silently because they no longer had tongues.) Many Christians also prayed silently in the temples, asking Christ to drive the demons from those places and bring pagan worshippers the light of Truth.

But all those people were doubtless syncretist heretics who were soft on Paganism. After all, they prayed in places of non-Christian worship.


Thanks, Maureen, for pointing all this out!!!


This is one of the reasons why I had asked John:

What of the countless Christian martyrs who, whether it was at Rome during the Roman Empire, in the Middle East during the time of the Crusades, or elsewhere, ended up praying at such places (be it a Mosque or a Pagan Temple); would you actually accuse them of the same thing?

God Bless!

Dr. Eric

Esau,

Constantine XI Paleologus, the last Emperor of Constantinople died after receiving Holy Communion from Cardinal Isidore of Kyiv. He never repudiated the recent communion between East and West at the Council of Florence. So the Last Emperor died in Communion with Rome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_XI

Esau

Constantine XI Paleologus, the last Emperor of Constantinople died after receiving Holy Communion from Cardinal Isidore of Kyiv. He never repudiated the recent communion between East and West at the Council of Florence. So the Last Emperor died in Communion with Rome.

Dr. Eric,

Thanks for the info!

The above which I quoted in the subject post was just recently brought to my attention.

Even so, I do appreciate the sentiments in it in light of the current antagonistic forces today's Catholics face.

Dr. Eric

Esau,

I think the only way that Islam and Secular Humanism can be stopped is by a united Christian front which can only begin with the reunification of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

I am very glad that (if the rumor is true) that the Holy Father and Patriarch Bartholomew will meet again in Ravenna early next year during the next round of the joint Catholic-Orthodox Ecumenical Sessions.

May they all be one as Jesus and the Father are one!

May God arise and His enemies be scattered!

Eric

For those who insist that Muslims do not worship the same God as Christians, here is what Nostra Aetate says:

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

So if you insist on claiming Islam does not worship the same God as Christianity, at least have the honesty to say that you disagree with Church teaching. Cafeterias are not just for liberals.

Esau

I think the only way that Islam and Secular Humanism can be stopped is by a united Christian front which can only begin with the reunification of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Yes, indeed!!!

That's the very reason why I had pointed out in that post (as reflected in others):

"Given the fact that from the Pope's recent visit to Turkey where both Pope Benedict XVI and the Greek Patriarch of Constantinople have pledged to seek full unity between Eastern Christians, Eastern Non-Catholic Christians, and Catholic Christians, there will come, hopefully, in time, the full unity that will be REQUIRED of present-day Christendom (if it even exists), and come out of this self-induced amnesia we have put ourselves in, in order to combat the real threats before us.


I still find it interesting that the Christendom that once existed then in the past was more aware of the threat from radical Islam than we are today. It actually took 9/11 for some to finally figure it out. Even now, there are those still wishing to ignore it.

For some reason, we have chosen to forget certain elements in the past that actually still apply to this day (thus, the self-induced amnesia I spoke of).


For example, there are folks who have, without much thought and consideration whatsoever, acquiesced to certain unjust negative impressions of the historical Church back in the day of the Crusades, served up by the finest in anti-Catholic secular sources, conveniently neglecting other certain genuine facts like the real threat that existed then, as it also exists now; that is, the notions of radical Islam that aims to conquer those they consider infidels, which continues even unto today -- the very threat that the Christendom of yesterday had rightly seen as a foreboding menace to Christianity and to Christians all over and, therefore, was found to be a real threat needing to be dealt with (and should be) accordingly.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

ERICK

If christianity worships the same God as Islam--who's to say that the Mormons don't worship the same God as Christians as well?----what about the Jehovah witnesses- et al?.
If all of these cults are only suffering from being "wrong" about their theology, then how can being wrong in theology make you STILL worship the same God?.-
You folks who seem to be blind to this logical fallacy need a course in comparative religion and another one on the basic laws of logic (such as the law of non-contradiction).
If the God of Christianity contradicts the god of Islam---then "a" cannot equal non- "a".

Esau

...how can being wrong in theology make you STILL worship the same God?.

That's odd... I could've sworn that Lutherans worshipped the same God as I do... I think, that would also apply to Presbyterians... Baptists...and, yet, their theology disagrees with Catholic Theology.

Esau

...Pentecostals, some who are, in fact, non-Trinitarian, could they be worshipping the same God as I do?!?

Esau

...Jews don't even believe in the Trinity or Jesus...could they be worshipping the same God as I do?

Tim M.

Jews believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac (and Ishmael) and Jacob

Muslims believe in the God of Abraham and Ishmael

Christians believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac (and Ishmael)and Jacab

how is this not the same God?

yes, Jews and Muslims (and "Jesus only" Pentecostals) deny the Trinity and the eternal Lordship of the Word / the Son.

they believe IN the same God but believe ABOUT the same God (as revealed) differently.

Esau

Jews believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac (and Ishmael) and Jacob

Muslims believe in the God of Abraham and Ishmael

Christians believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac (and Ishmael)and Jacab

how is this not the same God?

yes, Jews and Muslims (and "Jesus only" Pentecostals) deny the Trinity and the eternal Lordship of the Word / the Son.

they believe IN the same God but believe ABOUT the same God (as revealed) differently.


Thanks, Tim M.!

I was hoping somebody would make that distinction!

I was attempting to make that point with ERICK and John (jtnova), but, I guess, the direct path is always best!

Rosemarie

+J.M.J+

The Pontiff later said that, while in the mosque, he prayed to the "one Lord of heaven and earth, merciful father of all mankind".

No Muslim prayer would be addressed to the "merciful Father of all mankind,” since they don't call God "Father" at all. So he was clearly praying a *Christian* prayer to God Our Father.

Also, if you watch the footage of his visit to the mosque, you can see him touching his pectoral cross while silently meditating in the mosque. (I saw the footage on YouTube a few days ago, but it has apparently been removed since then "due to terms of use violation".)

In Jesu et Maria,

Rosemarie

+J.M.J+

Well, here's a much shorter, edited version of the visit:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OZQu1t7RXUA

Fast forward to about 47 seconds into the clip, and you will see him close his eyes and begin to meditate with his right hand touching the cross on his chest. The camera (from Turkish television) even focuses in on the pectoral cross at one point.

The whole clip is way too short; his meditation was actually closer to two minutes long.

In Jesu et Maria,

John

And Eric

I say once again what the church and all past Popes taught for centuries. As obviously Nostre Aetate changed what the church teachings and canon law was, then it is obviously pastoral and NOT to be followed, as much of Vatican II is, no matter how hard the liberals within the church try to make you believe this council was binding, as it is not, as it RETAUGHT and changed what was CATHOLIC to conform to the secular modern world

It was for this reason that the Catholic Church, prior to the Second Vatican Council, had forbidden Catholics to take active part in non-Catholic worship. Canon 1258 of the Code of Canon Law (1917) legislated:

“It is forbidden to actively participate in the worship of non-Catholics.” (communicatio in sacris)
And also Canon 2316:

“One who cooperates communicatio in sacris contrary to the provision of Canon 1258 is suspected of heresy.”
In the conclusion of his teaching on false ecumenism, Pope Pius XI stated:

“Thus, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics.”


Esau

No Muslim prayer would be addressed to the "merciful Father of all mankind,” since they don't call God "Father" at all. So he was clearly praying a *Christian* prayer to God Our Father.


Good point, Rosemarie!

To do so would be blaphemous to the Muslim!

Their's is strictly based on the Master/Servant mindset whereas Christianity (i.e., Catholicism), more precisely, revolves around the Covenant Family of God, of which we are all made a part by our baptism!

Jeb Protestant

There is only one God, but I would say that Jews, Muhammadans, Masons, pantheists and the like so misunderstand God that their worship is to "another God." Just like JW's have "another Jesus," (even though they believe many accurate things about him) Muhammadans have a different god.

In Turkey the pope acted like a white politician cow-towing to Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Jeb Protestant

There is only one God, but I would say that Jews, Muhammadans, Masons, pantheists and the like so misunderstand God that their worship is to "another God." Just like JW's have "another Jesus," (even though they believe many accurate things about him) Muhammadans have a different god.

In Turkey the pope acted like a white politician cow-towing to Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Jeb Protestant

There is only one God, but I would say that Jews, Muhammadans, Masons, pantheists and the like so misunderstand God that their worship is to "another God." Just like JW's have "another Jesus," (even though they believe many accurate things about him) Muhammadans have a different god.

In Turkey the pope acted like a white politician cow-towing to Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Esau

“It is forbidden to actively participate in the worship of non-Catholics.”

John:

Please instruct me, considering the above, how did the Pope *actively* participate in the worship of non-Catholics?

Again, do you also mean, the many Christian Martyrs who at the time of Rome as well as those at the time of the crusades, are they to also be considered, by you, to have actively participated in non-Catholic worship as well?

As I had asked before:
"What of the countless Christian martyrs who, whether it was at Rome during the Roman Empire, in the Middle East during the time of the Crusades, or elsewhere, ended up praying at such places (be it a Mosque or a Pagan Temple); would you actually accuse them of the same thing?"


Also, please READ the following from Maureen, which further illustrates the point:

Tertullian and other early Christian writers spend a lot of time pointing out that the arenas were not merely secular athletic stadiums, but rather a different sort of pagan temple. Christians were allowed to visit temples for business reasons (many temples were banks or places of trade and meetings), but not to actively participate in religious ceremonies there.

Countless martyrs prayed in the arena as they died for the faith -- some out loud, some silently. (Some silently because they no longer had tongues.) Many Christians also prayed silently in the temples, asking Christ to drive the demons from those places and bring pagan worshippers the light of Truth.

But all those people were doubtless syncretist heretics who were soft on Paganism. After all, they prayed in places of non-Christian worship.

John

Ecumenism is in direct conflict with scripture, as is a Pope, the Vicar of Christ, worshiping "God" in a Mosque

The saints and Popesof the ages past died rather than surrender their faith. Countless martyrs chose death over renouncing Christ in even the smallest way. Martyrs who were told to sacrifice to idols had burning coals placed in their hands yet they held these hot coals until their hands burned off rather than throw them before the idols, thus sacrificing to them. Men, women, and even young children were tortured in diverse, cruel and unimaginable ways because they refused to renounce our Lord and Savior. But we have Popes of Vatican II worshipping in these false faiths to make nice with them

Colossians 1:18 states, "And he is the head of the body, the church." In order to belong to this body of which Christ is the head, we must be of one body, believing the same things. For as a head cannot have multiple bodies, so we cannot differ in beliefs yet belong to the same head.

Heresy is to doubt or deny a particular truth of the faith, or perhaps some truths of the faith, while Apostasy, on the other hand, is to completely reject the Christian faith.

So you have Popes in JPII and now B16 who do not adhere to any of the articles of faith which they profess to believe. An ecumenist is someone who believes that all religions contain a certain measure of the truth, some more, some less, and that they all therefore have a certain value. All religions, for the ecumenist, are true religions.

Gaudium et Spes, teaches that Christ united himself in some way with every man because of His Incarnation:

Human nature, by the very fact that it was assumed, not absorbed, in him [Christ], has been raised in us to a dignity beyond compare. For, by his incarnation, he, the Son of God, has in a certain way united himself with each man. (Gaudium et Spes, no. 22)

Therefore every man, inasmuch as he is united to the Word by virtue of His Incarnation only, is a member of the Church of Christ. The Church of Christ is nothing else than the whole human race without any exception. Thus the goal of Vatican II is to make religious differences disappear, and make the divine order — that is the pantheistic order — prevail. For anyone who truly has the Catholic Faith could not:

Kiss the Koran, the Mohammedan “Bible.”

Say that all men are united to Christ solely by virtue of the Incarnation.

Say that all men are saved.

Say that it is divinely revealed that men have a right to religious freedom and freedom of conscience.

Permit the abomination of Assisi, in which a golden statue of Buddha was placed upon an altar an incensed by a Buddhist priest


This is outrageous and should be condemned, and I have seen very little on any of the blogs about this latest gaff as it is just another embarrassing attempt at a compromise of the faith, which Jesus was nailed to a cross rather than compromise, and all but one of the Apostles met a martyrs death, but the Vatican II popes would surrender the keys of the Vatican to the Moslems once they take over Europe and eventually Rome, and so many Catholics like on this blog are so sadly brainwashed

John

Ecumenism is in direct conflict with scripture, as is a Pope, the Vicar of Christ, worshiping "God" in a Mosque

The saints and Popesof the ages past died rather than surrender their faith. Countless martyrs chose death over renouncing Christ in even the smallest way. Martyrs who were told to sacrifice to idols had burning coals placed in their hands yet they held these hot coals until their hands burned off rather than throw them before the idols, thus sacrificing to them. Men, women, and even young children were tortured in diverse, cruel and unimaginable ways because they refused to renounce our Lord and Savior. But we have Popes of Vatican II worshipping in these false faiths to make nice with them

Colossians 1:18 states, "And he is the head of the body, the church." In order to belong to this body of which Christ is the head, we must be of one body, believing the same things. For as a head cannot have multiple bodies, so we cannot differ in beliefs yet belong to the same head.

Heresy is to doubt or deny a particular truth of the faith, or perhaps some truths of the faith, while Apostasy, on the other hand, is to completely reject the Christian faith.

So you have Popes in JPII and now B16 who do not adhere to any of the articles of faith which they profess to believe. An ecumenist is someone who believes that all religions contain a certain measure of the truth, some more, some less, and that they all therefore have a certain value. All religions, for the ecumenist, are true religions.

Gaudium et Spes, teaches that Christ united himself in some way with every man because of His Incarnation:

Human nature, by the very fact that it was assumed, not absorbed, in him [Christ], has been raised in us to a dignity beyond compare. For, by his incarnation, he, the Son of God, has in a certain way united himself with each man. (Gaudium et Spes, no. 22)

Therefore every man, inasmuch as he is united to the Word by virtue of His Incarnation only, is a member of the Church of Christ. The Church of Christ is nothing else than the whole human race without any exception. Thus the goal of Vatican II is to make religious differences disappear, and make the divine order — that is the pantheistic order — prevail. For anyone who truly has the Catholic Faith could not:

Kiss the Koran, the Mohammedan “Bible.”

Say that all men are united to Christ solely by virtue of the Incarnation.

Say that all men are saved.

Say that it is divinely revealed that men have a right to religious freedom and freedom of conscience.

Permit the abomination of Assisi, in which a golden statue of Buddha was placed upon an altar an incensed by a Buddhist priest


This is outrageous and should be condemned, and I have seen very little on any of the blogs about this latest gaff as it is just another embarrassing attempt at a compromise of the faith, which Jesus was nailed to a cross rather than compromise, and all but one of the Apostles met a martyrs death, but the Vatican II popes would surrender the keys of the Vatican to the Moslems once they take over Europe and eventually Rome, and so many Catholics like on this blog are so sadly brainwashed

erick

So to follow your "logic"--- all God had to do in the Old Testament was to "correct" the views of the pagans who were really believing in Jehovah all along, albeit just "differently".
Quite the opposite is revealed in scripture, for God judged the Israelites many times for following and worshipping OTHER gods!.
The Christian God ordered Abraham to sacrifice Issac.
The Muslim god ordered Abraham to sacrifice Ishmael.
We have a contradiction folks!- they cannot be the same.

borneon

when we pray in a church or in our car or at work or anywhere we can find time to do so, is God present to listen to our prayer? when i m in the jungle, and i decided to say my prayer to God, do i pray to the trees? of course to an observer it would seem so, but deep in my heart, i know i am praying to the one God

does it matter where B16 said his prayer, when it is obvious that he prays to the one God - our God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

is our God not God enough to enter a mosque to listen to B16's prayer?

Francis DS

Until such time we actually grasp this understanding of radical Islam, we are at their mercy.

It is Star Trek become nightmare.

Resistance is futile, you will be Islamilated.


patrick

Wow. I never knew our Pope is a bad person for praying inside a mosque. Who knows? He might be praying to the Lord Jesus, but i'll just assume he's praying to Allah.(I can never read his heart, but oh well) After all the Gates of Hell prevailed over Jesus' Church (despite Him promising that it wouldn't) and all sorts of Abomination happened like this incident and Assisi and Catholics not knowing their faith and Traffic Jams and Computer lags and high prices, etc. etc. Ever since that darned Vatican II happened with its Pagan teachings betraying 2000 years of tradition (Never get me started on reading the Documents nor to listen to those who attended it). Thanks for enlightening me.

I guess when the Pope prays inside the Vatican Gardens, He's doing Nature Worship and isworshiping the god of shrubs and bushes and trees. Why? Will the Pope's prayers to God be blocked/redirected to Allah if he prays inside a Mosque? Christians refused to pray to gods inside their temples, but I doubt B16 was praying to Allah.

patrick

I'll just clarify the last sentence: Christians refused to pray to pagan gods, but I doubt B16 was praying to Allah inside that mosque. Is God not inside a mosque? Will all our prayers go to Allah (Even if they are intended for the True God) inside there? What about the Hagia Sophia? The Church of the Ascension? Will their becoming a Mosque block our Prayers adressed to the Lord Jesus Christ?

Esau

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