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December 01, 2006

Comments

Deacon Chris

Loved the snub to Istanbul. Whenever I have an opportunity (RCIA, homilies, teaching, bible studies) I always refer to the city as Constantinople.

I also take the opportunity to point out the damage and illegal occupation of Hagia Sophia by Muslim iconoclasts.

His Holiness Bartholomew delivered an excellent homily during the divine liturgy.

And for a nit-pick of the day -- note well journalist-types -- he's not Bartholomew the First, just Bartholomew (he won't be the first until another Ecumenical Patriarch chooses the same name).

Shane

Not a fan that the joint declaration says it is from the "two" Churches.

rsps

I thought the snub on "Istanbul" was rather infantile. It would be like nixing 'Mexico City' and replacing it with 'Tlatelolco' which was the city that was encompassed by Mexico city in the late 1500's.

Monica

Too bad the title couldn't be accompanied by the song 'Istanbul (not Constantinople)' by They Might be Giants.

rsps

That is an awsome song...you know they do kids songs too? We have a great dvd...which includes a song called 'the alphabet of nations'. My kids already know the names countries that most college students don't know exist.

francis

Shane,

It is the practice of the Catholic Church to refer to legitimate ecclesial institutions as "Churches". Since the Orthodox Churches have valid apostolic succession (and thus valid sacraments), they are truly "Churches".

Don't confuse the two meanings of "Church", however. One refers to each individual particular Church, such as the Roman Church, or the Russian Church, or the Melkite Church, of which there are many. The other meaning refers to the universal Church, of which there is only one, and of which the particular Churches belong, either wholly or imperfectly (and which is the Catholic Church). The joint declaration, when it refers to "two Churches" is using term in the first sense.

Scott W

I took it as a gag and not a snub. Therefore, not infantile.

rsps

I am going to start referring to 'mosul' as 'nineveh'.
Actually if you read the poster who praises the 'snub'(his word) you will note that there are Catholics out there that still bear great dislike for the ancient sacking (1204;1453) and renaming of 'Constantanople' to Istanbul in the 1930's.

Jimmy Akin

That is an awsome song...you know they do kids songs too? We have a great dvd...which includes a song called 'the alphabet of nations'. My kids already know the names countries that most college students don't know exist.

Cool!

I've taught myself the Animaniacs' "Nations of the World" song. Here's the first verse from memory:

United States, Canada, Mexico, Panama, Hati, Jamaica, Peru.
Republic (Dominican), Cuba, Carribean, Greenland, El Salvador, too!
Costa Rica, Belize, Nicaragua, Bermuda, Bahamas, Tobago, San Juan,
Paraguay, Uruguay, Surinam, and French Guyana, Barbados, and Guam!

Hee! I love that song.

Kris

If the Orthodox Church came into full communion with Rome, what would the role of Patriarch become? Just curious what ya'll think.

rsps

The alphabet of nations!
"Algeria, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Dominica, Egypt, France, the Gambia
Hungary, Iran, Japan, Kazakhstan, Libya and Mongolia
Norway, Oman, Pakistan
Qatar, Russia, Suriname
Turkey, Uruguay, Vietnam
West Xylophone, Yemen, Zimbabwe"

between 'They might be giants' and the 'Animaniacs' we might be able to get most the globe in.

Shane

I realized that after I posted, which I did rather rapidly.

francis

If the Orthodox Church came into full communion with Rome, what would the role of Patriarch become? Just curious what ya'll think.

He would be the (almost-)autonomous head of the Greek Church, for sure. As such, he would set the disciplines for members of that particular Church (such as priestly celibacy requirements, fast days, etc.). He also would be #2 in honor (after the Pope) at Councils and any other universal Church gatherings.

Loved the snub to Istanbul. Whenever I have an opportunity (RCIA, homilies, teaching, bible studies) I always refer to the city as Constantinople.

I refer to the city as Constantinople, too, in similar situations, but snubbing its current name isn't necessarily a snub against its current rulers. The name Istanbul is Greek in origin. In the golden Byzantine age, Constantinople (or New Rome) was referred to has The City, (or, ἡ Πόλις, he Polis, in Greek). When those outside the City had business there, they'd say they were going "to the City," (εἰς τὴν Πόλιν, eis ten Polin). That phrase was corrupted over time into στην Πόλη, sten Pole, then Istanbul.

Eric G.

Thank for reminding me why I hate the Novus Ordo.

This liturgy was tacky as hell, as was the one later celebrated in the Istanbul Catholic Cathedral!

Compare those images with those of the Orthodox Liturgy; we've so much to be ashamed of liturgically and spiritually it's not even funny.

"Reform of the reform" . . . Blah!

The Bogus Ordo is atrocious, and is not even worthy of the name "worship". Hindus, Muslims, and Buddhists worship God more reverently than 99.9% of Latin-rite Catholics do, and they're not even Christian!

Alexander of Macedon

Francis,

That's not entirely accurate. First, there's already an autonomous Greek Church, with an Archbishop.

Second, the Patriarch doesn't exactly set disciplines within his jurisdiction. He acts with a synod and doesn't make unilateral decisions. It's important not to overstate the role of Orthodox bishops, both now and after a potential and long-awaited re-Union, just so both Churches are talking about the same thing.

But you are completely right that the Patriarch of Constantinople would revert to a #2 role, so to speak, in the Church.

David B.

Eric G.,

Take your anger somewhere else.


Jimmy Akin,

Please delete his post. Thanks in advance!

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