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« Pope Benedict Day: Prayer | Main | Pope Benedict Day: The Book »

November 28, 2006

Comments

Joe

thanks for the post. I do have one question/comment for anyone concerning the above:

What's the scoop on John Allen? Anyone affiliated with the National Catholic Reporter frightens me a bit. A friend gave me his bio on the Pope, but I will admit I haven't got past the third chapter.

Barbara

In addition to praying for the Pope's safety, let's also pray for the success of one of the goals of this trip: his meeting with the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomeos I of Contstantinople.

Trey

John is with the NCR, but he's noted for his objectivity and fairness. Good instincts, but not to worry (too much) here.

AmericanPapist

I'm keeping track of the trip on my blog:

http://americanpapist.com/blog.html

(if anyone is desperate for coverage...)

BillyHW

I recognize the good diplomatic effects of this announcement, though I don't think it really signals that the Holy Father is warm to the idea of Turkey joining the EU.

Is it too much to hope for that we will one day get a pope who says what he means and means what he says, in clear, non-mentally reserved language, without apologizing when not having said anything wrong?

elena maria vidal

I am glad so many are united in prayer for our Holy Father and his goals. The Turks have for centuries wanted to be recognized as part of Europe, but some of their practices, especially their treatment of women, always stood in the way.

It blows me away that the Vicar of Christ in now in Constantinople. It is beyond historic, it is apocalyptic!

Esau

I recognize the good diplomatic effects of this announcement, though I don't think it really signals that the Holy Father is warm to the idea of Turkey joining the EU.

Is it too much to hope for that we will one day get a pope who says what he means and means what he says, in clear, non-mentally reserved language, without apologizing when not having said anything wrong?

Is it too much to ask for a Pope that's perfect in every way?!?!?! Why can't God give us a Pope that's immaculate, pure and perfect?!?!? Why does he have to be so HUMAN????

jt82

"Why can't God give us a Pope that's immaculate, pure and perfect?!?!? Why does he have to be so HUMAN????"

That is what I have always thought about Peter!

Esau

That is what I have always thought about Peter!

Actually, that's what I LOVED about Peter!

He was SO HUMAN and God shows us that even through such people, he can work miracles!

Esau

Is it too much to ask for a Pope that's perfect in every way?!?!?! Why can't God give us a Pope that's immaculate, pure and perfect?!?!? Why does he have to be so HUMAN????

Just in case, for those who didn't know, I was just being sarcastic here.

That is, we shouldn't expect our Pope to be so perfect.

We're fortunate enough to have had a great Pope in JP II and an almost incredibly awesome Pope in our midst, B16!

esau

Off!

J.R. Stoodley

fixed?

J.R. Stoodley

oops.

J.R. Stoodley

I hate this stupid time zone thing confusing me about what time things happened. Why can't you just use Eastern Standard time like everyone else (j/k).

To get on topic, I really like Pope Benedict, but I wish he wern't endangering himself like this.

Esau

To get on topic, I really like Pope Benedict, but I wish he wern't endangering himself like this.

I wished so, too. Especially after the Regensburg event and the narrow-minded folks who just limited their hearing/reading to the Emperor quote of his rather than the entire full text of B16's speech!

The guy is truly Servus Servorum, no matter the costs!

As mentioned, to me, this guy is almost as equally awesome as JP II. I'm just hoping though he doesn't end up a Martyr in this case.

I'd still love to witness from him as long a papacy as possible.

Plus, I want him to complete his volume of great insightful works!!! ;^)

Augustine

Christianity's best hopes for fair treatment in Turkey is if Turkey joins the EU. Unless, of course, the EU grasps the opportunity to clash its own Judeo-Christian culture by allowing Turkey to continue oppressing Christians after joining its anti-West club.

Rambling aside, in my mind, the high point of this trip will be His Holiness meeting with the Patriarch of Constantinople.

May God open both patriarchs hearts and protect them from evil.

Esau

Unless, of course, the EU grasps the opportunity to clash its own Judeo-Christian culture by allowing Turkey to continue oppressing Christians after joining its anti-West club.

I think that the EU has already repudiated its own Judeo-Christian culture and, in fact, its very roots, which may be the very reason why Cardinal Ratzinger made certain remarks to that effect in the past.

J.R. Stoodley

The EU repudiated its Christian (I don't get the "Judeo" part) roots when it refused to mention Christianity in its constitution. The fact remains thought that like it or not Europe is a traditionally Christian continent/culture. At this time we need to recapture that Christian identity not throw it away. That is one big reason why Turkey should not be allowed into the EU.

Another is that Turkey's membership would make it all to real a bridge between Europe and the Middle-East. Massive amounts of Turks would immigrate into Europe, and probably people from elsewhere in the Middle-East and Africa would go to Turkey and from there be free to move throughout Europe. This would greatly increase what is already a (mostly) peaceful Islamic invasion of Europe, which though nicer than the violent ones of the past threatens Europe's survival just as much.

Esau

J.R.:

Massive amounts of Turks would immigrate into Europe...

Will it really require the act of Turkey becoming part of the EU to actually have the above happen? Who's to say that this hasn't already happened? Based on your latter statement, it seems you've already recognized this event already in progress.


The fact remains thought that like it or not Europe is a traditionally Christian continent/culture.

The way that Europe is today, you can hardly tell it's Christian. Historically speaking, it may have always been the case, but at least in the past, it had often recognized its roots in Christianity and attempted to preserve it in some form.

John

I do agree with Billy HW as all one has to do is take a look at past Papal encyclicals on freemasonry or Modernism and one knew exactly where Leo XIII or Pius X stood on the subject, not like today where the Pope has wielded all power to the Bishops and then still gets blasted, after all he is really the "Bishop of Rome" and wears only a miter.

B16 is a good man and the best we have seen in a long time. What I would like is for him to call the Catholics and Orthodox together and have them unite and take back Constantinople from these Moslem terrorists and let these Islamic extremists know that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox will unite when we are threatened

Jeb Protestant

If Islam is as great and wonderful as Benedict now says it is, why isn't he in favor of Turkey joining the EU? Since a higher percentage of Turks practice their Muhammadanism than Christians in Europe practice their Christianity, having Turkey in the EU should be a big improvement.

I get the impression that Benedict rejects the egalitarianism and pluralism of JP the Naive, but is having a hard time breaking with his predecessor.

Esau

B16 is a good man and the best we have seen in a long time. What I would like is for him to call the Catholics and Orthodox together and have them unite and take back Constantinople from these Moslem terrorists and let these Islamic extremists know that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox will unite when we are threatened

Okay, John, the above sounds rather nice and, to some degree, I wished it were the case. However, the Catholic Powers no longer exist today. Unfortunately, only Muslim nations as well as Protestant ones stand. Even Italy itself is not a Catholic nation, all things considered.


But, about the following:
I do agree with Billy HW as all one has to do is take a look at past Papal encyclicals on freemasonry or Modernism and one knew exactly where Leo XIII or Pius X stood on the subject, not like today where the Pope has wielded all power to the Bishops and then still gets blasted, after all he is really the "Bishop of Rome" and wears only a miter.

Do you really think that that was what BillyHW meant? You're reading more into his statement "Is it too much to hope for that we will one day get a pope who says what he means and means what he says, in clear, non-mentally reserved language, without apologizing when not having said anything wrong?" than is really there.

...after all he is really the "Bishop of Rome" and wears only a miter.

Also, what do you want B16 to wear? The Papal Crown? The Tiara, of all things?

Is it too much to comprehend that B16, as humble as he is, refuses to adorn himself with this needless ornament?
Even Christ, who is truly King of Kings, wore no crown; in fact, his crown was a Crown of Thorns!

Kris

Personally, I think the Papal Tiara is pretty cool and since the Pope represents the reign of Christ the King, it's not all that innapropriate.

Anyway, back to topic. I wish there was much more emphasis on the Holy Father's visit with the Patriarch. That seems to be be the real story here. Before we can really face the threat of radical Islam, we have to stand united with our Orthodox bretheren.

John

Esau

Maybe I misunderstood Billy

But as far as the Papal Tiara, I think it is important for the Vicar of Christ, no matter how much the Protestants and other faiths hem and haw about the Pope and the Vatican and all of their riches (Like I am sure Swaggart, Robertson, and the newest Oswalt sp? are really hurting for money!), it is a symbol of Christ the King and the Pope is just that not some Bishop of Rome. Appearance unfortunatly means much, as Reagan and great leaders have to give off an appearance of being a leader.
If the Pope really wants to be like Christ-then he should then don a cloth and go barefoot around Israel. Bring back the tiarra

Esau

Anyway, back to topic. I wish there was much more emphasis on the Holy Father's visit with the Patriarch. That seems to be be the real story here. Before we can really face the threat of radical Islam, we have to stand united with our Orthodox bretheren.

I like what John said to that extent.

We can only pray that we can in fact breach the divide that had come between us and the Orthodox since 1054. In this day and age, we have all the more reason to build a United Christendom once again!

Esau

Esau

Maybe I misunderstood Billy

But as far as the Papal Tiara, I think it is important for the Vicar of Christ, no matter how much the Protestants and other faiths hem and haw about the Pope and the Vatican and all of their riches (Like I am sure Swaggart, Robertson, and the newest Oswalt sp? are really hurting for money!), it is a symbol of Christ the King and the Pope is just that not some Bishop of Rome. Appearance unfortunatly means much, as Reagan and great leaders have to give off an appearance of being a leader.

If the Pope really wants to be like Christ-then he should then don a cloth and go barefoot around Israel. Bring back the tiarra

John,
I actually like the sentiments in your original post and in the post above.

However, you do remember what the three tiers stood for?

I don't believe given the state of the papacy in this day, it can ever aspire to reclaim the same glory that it once possessed.

J.R. Stoodley

The three lines of the mitre on Pope Benedict's coat of arms represent the same three things the tiers stood for, so I don't think that is wrong. The Holy See as an indipendant State replaces the Papal States of antiquity. The episcopal and magisterial authority of the Pope (that's what the other two tiers represented right?) are still as valid today as they ever were.

I definitely think we need the tiarra back. It is the prime symbol of Papal authority and to refuse to wear it suggests the Popes do not claim the same authority as they once did, that they have broken with the general history of the Papacy. The Protestants may love this, but that doesn't make it right. Indeed that is why it is a bad idea. Besides, if wearing a crown like thing is so bad what about those worn by Eastern patriarchs, Catholic and Orthdox alike? Who here as the gall to tell them they are being pompous or unevangelical in wearing their traditional clothing. We western Catholics have no more reason to abandon our traditions than they do.

As for Europe, yes they are abandoning Christianity but they can't escape the great churches and cathedrals the continent is filled with, the crosses on so many of their national flags and other Christian imagery that pervades everything. Then there is the fact that many nations still have national Churches or at least strong links between the government and one or a few Christian Churches, and in some cases the Head of State (monarch) is also the Head of the Church. That isn't actually a good thing but it reinforces the Christian nature of Europe. The people may for the most part not be really Christian anymore (though still most people with any religion are Christian), but I would contend that what is left of the soul of Europe still is.

With Turkey entering the European Union you would have a predominanty Muslim country, representing a culture that has always been the antithesis of the Christian West, being declared European. This would be a major loss of identity for Europe, or at least make the word "Europe" meaningless in a cultural sense. Also while through legal (e.g. Germany's old "guest worker" program) or illegal immigration many Muslims have entered Europe from the Middle East and North Africa, contributing further to the loss of European identity, but the free movement across borders that comes with EU membership would greatly increase this.

Esau

J.R.:
I was merely providing John with a reason for why it isn't worn nowadays, stating in an earlier post that even Christ himself did not wear an actual crown himself and he was/is actually King of Kings.

Yet, the glory I had referred to in a post thereafter is that which was once present in the form of temporal power that the papacy no longer holds. There is now but only a shadow of that which once was. And Europe itself is so quick and foolish to relinquish that essential element of its past which undeniably is but a part of its soul, its very identity.

While there is quite a different type of papacy that now exists, quite distinct from the glorious days of its former past; there is a different glory that it now aspires to which is appropriately beyond that temporal position it once occupied.

Yet, as I had said in the post above, I did rather like the sentiments in John's posts.

Further, John definitely has a point in that:

Appearance unfortunatly means much, as Reagan and great leaders have to give off an appearance of being a leader.

J.R. Stoodley

Esau,

Sorry if my post sounded hostile to you. I think we all agree here that the idea of the Papal tiarra is not evil, whether or not it should come back.

I'll point out though that the Pope is still a Head of State and is honored as such wherever he goes. Because the state he rules is much smaller than it once was does not mean it can not have its place on his tiarra. As I pointed out, one of the stripes of the miter on B16's coat of arms stands for that temporal political authority.

Esau

J.R.:

Not hostile at all, J.R.

In fact, I appreciate the above posts from both you and John. Even more, I'm actually taken aback with my actually agreeing with John not just once but twice in his recent posts.

I do recognize though that the Pope is still a Head of State, but with all that has happened as far as the Papal States go, with the last insult to the already inflicted injury back then being the acres of lands that were ultimately confiscated in the end, it's just all too sad a history to recall that what now remains is the small piece of land that is now occupied.

The tiara would seem an appropriate part of the Pope's attire especially in light of John's remark which I had cited in my post to you. Not to mention, the other remark John had made regarding the fact that (at least the way I interpret it) perception of the Pope and papal power having been diminished even in the eyes of the heirarchy and it may, in fact, be due to, among other things, that he merely wears the miter.

Yet, perhaps it may be that we now have reached a time in history unlike the glorious papacies of past eras where a new type of papacy is necessary in order to hold back the darkness that now befalls us.

Hopefully, the Pope will triumph in the end in Christ's name and fulfill all that God has in plan for him (at least, until all his work is completed; not only as it pertains to the completion of his insightful works, but other well-anticipated fruits of his papacy which I very much look forward to for the Glory of God)!

Esau

AL-QAIDA DENOUNCES POPE VISIT TO TURKEY

"The pope's visit, in fact, is to consolidate the crusader campaign against the lands of Islam after the failure of the crusader leaders ... and an attempt to extinguish the burning ember of Islam inside our Turkish brothers," it said.

Turkey holds a significant place in the mind-set of al-Qaida and militant Islamic groups that sympathize with it. Under the Ottomans, Turkey was the seat of the Islamic caliphate, the religious rule extending over much of the Islamic world until its collapse in the early 20th century.

Al-Qaida has said its goal is to restore the caliphate, to unify Muslims in the fight against the West.

The group said the pope was visiting in order to ensure that Turkey — "once a stronghold of Islam" — remains secular and "is driven into the arms of the European Union to stop the spread of Islam." (EXCERPTS)


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061129/ap_on_re_mi_ea/pope_al_qaida_3


PLEASE ALL PRAY FOR THE POPE'S SAFETY IN THIS VISIT!

Esau

POPE'S TURKISH TOUR IS A SURPRISING SUCCESS

Benedict transforms his pre-speech image as a cranky Islamaphobe

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15971974/

ISTANBUL, Turkey — The newspaper headlines here have been astonishing. "So Far So Good," read one banner headline; "Alliance of Faiths," read another. And splashed across the front page of most papers Thursday was a picture of a smiling Pope Benedict XVI waving a Turkish flag.

With gentle gestures and well-timed words, Benedict managed to charm the Turkish people and transformed his image from a crusty old anti-Turkish Islamaphobe to a politically savvy statesman in a matter of days. (He is set to return to Rome at midday Friday.)

EXCERPT

Esau

Pope's Turkish tour is a surprising success

DIRE WARNINGS
This is not how things were expected to turn out for Benedict's visit to Turkey. Rather, there were dire warnings of mass demonstrations and fears that there might even be an assassination attempt because tensions were still so raw among many Turkish people over past perceived transgressions by the pope.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15971974/

Esau

Not world peace yet, but….
The hurdles to achieve inter-faith trust are formidable, but as this trip winds up, both the pope and the Turkish people can be considered winners.

The losers were easy to spot: al-Qaida in Iraq and the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt, both of which protested the Pope's visit — al-Qaida calling it a "crusader campaign" against Islam — and expressed hope that the Turkish people would extensively protest the pope's visit.

Let's go to the scoreboard: Turkey has a population of 70 million people, 99 percent of whom are Muslim, yet they hosted the leader of the Catholic faith with dignity, respect and, on occasion, charm.

It was not an easy visit for both sides, but the world got a valuable lesson in tolerance.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15971974/

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