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November 21, 2006

Comments

Rick Morales

Simply more Novus Ordo foolishness. I am sure that this priest will get off scott free. I am sure his bishop will not banish him to some unsavory assignment in his diocese. Meanwhile, conservative and traditional priests are persecuted by their bishops daily on the grounds that they are orthodox. Makes a lot of sense to me.

francis

Actually, I'm quite impressed with the priest's apology. In this age of non-apologetic apologies, he appears to sincerely realize his own error and is making amends to correct it. I applaud him for that.

Ed Peters

i agree with francis.

SDG

It's definitely a step in the right direction -- a real apology, not a pseudo-apology, but still an inadequate apology. He's apologized for the "inappropriate" devil costumes, but the whole "appropriate/inappropriate costumes" business ignores the larger fact that Halloween costumes don't belong in church, and definitely not on extraordinary ministers. (Whether the extraordinary ministers should be there in the first place is a whole nother question.)

The most promising part of the letter, IMO, is the final sentence, "I await your counsel and assistance in determining an appropriate manner of making amends for this matter." Let's hope it doesn't end here, that the bishop stands up and does his duty and provides the "counsel and assistance" needed to "determine an appropriate manner" of proceeding, so that we don't have any more costume Masses in the future.

Scott W

They have a jaw-droppingly astonishing sense of what is appropriate at sacred liturgies

I assume in that second-to-last sentence that you meant something like, "They have a jaw-droppingly astonishing lack of sense of what is appropriate at sacred liturgies."

Barbara

I agree with francis as well.

Christine

I think it is a lame apology.
The only thing he seems to have acknowledged is that some of the costumes were inappropriate.
The fact is there should not have been a Halloween Mass at all...period.

Christine
TheWorld...IMHO

Realist

Secretly taping Masses with YouTube exposure?? Now there is a possible solution to the poor homilies. Maybe a contest for Sunday's worst homily? Worst church sound system? Most contaminated holy water font?

SDG

I assume in that second-to-last sentence that you meant something like, "They have a jaw-droppingly astonishing lack of sense of what is appropriate at sacred liturgies."

This is one of those verbal ambiguities where the word "sense" can mean either "good sense" or "sense of any kind, whether good or bad." A similar word is "taste." You can say that someone has "taste" (meaning good taste) or that something is "in poor taste" or "tasteless," but you can also say that someone has "appalling taste" -- or "jaw-droppingly astonishing taste" -- and that makes sense (good sense) too.

"Jaw-droppingly astonishing sense of what is appropriate" does not necessarily mean good sense. It can also mean that they have a very poor sense of what is appropriate.

Scott W

SDG,

Point taken.

Monica

SDG - "a whole nother" is my FAVORITE goofy English - I snicker every time I hear it. It's right up there with 'irregardless'. (we prefer 'antidisirregardless' at our house.)

Tim J.

I agree that the apology lacks the most important element - an admission that the idea of Halloween costumes at Mass is just wrong-headed. He seems to take responsibility only for letting some costumes get out of hand.

If they want to have a family Halloween get-together at the Church hall or something, fine... but the very fact that this priest allowed - actually encouraged - the Mass to be treated in this flippant manner demonstrates a COMPLETE failure to grasp the meaning of the Mass at the most basic level.

God save His Church from such men!

Scott W

I suppose perhaps the big term of non-ambiguous ambiguity as it were is "family values". I used to joke that a man who beats his wife and children every day has family values--he has despicable family values, but colloquilly family values implies wholesome family values.

Give me ambiguity, or give me something else! :)

SDG

SDG - "a whole nother" is my FAVORITE goofy English - I snicker every time I hear it.

Yes, it makes no sense at all structurally. :-) And yet in colloquial usage it can actually be rather useful. It's not always easy to find a completely satisfactory grammatical alternative.

For example, "a completely different" is perfectly correct, but it lacks the right nuance for the present context, where cumulative rather than disjunctive force is intended. (I.e., we want something more like "And then on top of that..." than "This is wholly separate from...").

Sometimes, goofy English is the best English. :-)

Monica

I agree. I think it often is the most concise and understandable way to say what you mean. My bro in law, a phd in English, went to the Modern Lang. Assoc. conference and overheard someone use 'a whole nother' so we had a good laugh and have used it freely ever since.

Esau

I agree that the apology lacks the most important element - an admission that the idea of Halloween costumes at Mass is just wrong-headed. He seems to take responsibility only for letting some costumes get out of hand.

If they want to have a family Halloween get-together at the Church hall or something, fine... but the very fact that this priest allowed - actually encouraged - the Mass to be treated in this flippant manner demonstrates a COMPLETE failure to grasp the meaning of the Mass at the most basic level.

God save His Church from such men!

I COMPLETELY agree with Tim J. on this one.

This is absolutely HORRIFYING!

I mean, what would the children attending this 'event' think of the whole entire idea of the Mass given the way it's treated here???

That the Mass is nothing more but fun and games, like a Halloween party, that deserves as much respect as a 'Trick or Treat' adventure?

I thought that I'd already run into some of the worst liturgical abuses, but this just takes the cake!

Like in Tim's post, the priest does not appear to be sorry for the whole idea of wearing Halloween costumes to Mass -- just the fact that it got out of hand by the choices some made to wear certain completely inappropriate(?) costumes!

But, the fact of the matter is that this whole idea, the very fact that they wore costumes in the first place -- it was entirely inappropriate!

What is this????

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass REDUCED to a Halloweed Party of sorts!?!?!?!?

I'm surprised they didn't just go ahead and make the Eucharist shaped into some devilish Halloween chips just to make the whole ordeal apropos to their pagan treatment of the Mass, and the priest wearing Warlock attire to seal the entire ceremony in all its "fun-filled" heresy!

This ABSOLUTELY disgusts me!

Kasia

Well, maybe Tod Brown will tell Fr. Bailey that a Halloween Mass is simply not appropriate.

...well, I can hope, can't I?

Esau

"I am aware that my enthusiasm for our family celebration of Halloween has caused me to neglect my pastoral duties of providing appropriate direction and instruction to our people regarding appropriate/inappropriate costumes. Prior to the weekend of October 28-29 I failed to adequately instruct our assorted liturgical ministers as to what might be appropriate apparel for their ministry. "

In other words, I'm only sorry because I didn't tell them what was appropriate to wear.


"Many parents inquired if they too could wear costumes so as to make it a family event..."

The priest speaks like this is some sort of parish 'carnival' event!

Like Tim and others have stressed in past threads, we can see here more than ever that our Church definitely needs prayers in this critical time of our Church!

As Tim J. said:
"Pray without ceasing, folks."

Kris

It's not vatican II it's bad priests. It's not Vatican II it's bad priests It's not...

What a challenge that is to remember sometimes!

Anyway, this story resonates with me very strongly. Just this Sunday, I went to Mass, not knowing that it was a "special Eucharistic celebration of the contributions of Black Catholics." The congregation was treated to endless African tribal dancing and chanting throughout the whole mass. I just couldn't take it, I walked out before the homily with a heavy heart and eyes full of tears.

ruth

Kris, I completely agree with you. Those that blame this on Vatican II are very insulting to us who have sought out beautiful, reverent Novus Ordo Masses. In fact I find that those people, in their disgust for everything Novus Ordo and Vatican II forget that Christ is still present in the Eucharist at those masses as well. So the greatest form of Respect is to direct your heart to Him while HE is suffering those indiganations. Sometimes having a friend with a video camera helps as well.

Esau

It's not vatican II it's bad priests. It's not Vatican II it's bad priests It's not...

Kris,
You're not the only one!

After seeing the above post from Jimmy, this really, really upset me!

One of the very reasons why I had started attending the Tridentine Mass in the past (when it was available to me) was because, for the most part, knowing the type of clergy who actually celebrate the Tridentine Mass, there's little chance they'd celebrate it improperly (albeit, I've heard isolated instances where they have been in some parts of the country).

Most clergy who do are very "by-the-book" type of folks. Some of them almost too draconian for my taste (there's actually a simpler word to describe it, but it may appear to some as being too vulgar).

All we can do is pray, brutha!

Kris

I tried to get our campus ministry office to find a FSSP priest to say a Tridentine Mass on my college campus--simply for the sake of knowing it would be done right. I got the old "well, we don't really do that anymore..."

SDG

Okay, I'm actually watching the video for the first time.

My overall impression is that it is not quite as bad as I had feared from the descriptions. Most parishioners are not in costume, and a lot of the "costumes" appear to consist mostly of headgear (e.g., the "devil" extraordinary minister appears to be only wearing a wig with horns, etc.).

Fr. Bailey is clearly a nutjob, though. And the worst thing, I think, is a bastardized line of the liturgy itself, in which Fr. Bailey introduces the Our Father with the words, "As goblins and ghouls, we raise one voice... Our Father...." (Although the "Addams Family" theme during Father's costume change and the Barney the Dinosaur recesssional are close behind.)

God have mercy on his soul. And, please God, let the bishop do his job.

Esau

Sometimes having a friend with a video camera helps as well.

Those who know me in these threads know how much I've wrestled with Anti-VII folks out there, but this remark kinda distresses me.

I mean, I like the fact that we can actually capture on film liturgical abuses and present them as evidence in order to effect change to the point of perhaps one day where a properly celebrated Novus Ordo Missae becomes the norm in every parish in the U.S. --

But, must we actually go as far as to the extent of each of us coming into Mass, like some secret police, focussed on capturing liturgical abuse in the Novus Ordo, which can actually take away our very focus from where it should belong which is Christ Himself in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?

Tim J.

"It's not vatican II it's bad priests. It's not Vatican II it's bad priests It's not.."

It's not even a matter of laying everything at the feet of bad priests... the point is that we have become this venal, self-seeking culture that produces and then rewards such priests. Such abuses could never have taken hold if great numbers of Catholics had not been indifferent to them.

Vatican II is not -has never been - the problem.

ruth

I still think it is important to concentrate on the fact the Christ is suffering these indignations... As with the stations of the cross we are asked to be present with Him during his suffering. I think a lot of people concentrate only on how upset they are by the abuse, and forget that Christ is indeed present in the Eucharist no matter what the congregation is doing around Him. I have often gritted my teeth and just set my heart on Him and prayed to be more reverant, more loving for witnessing His suffering.
Of course we need to speak up when we see abuse. The Church actually has a protocol for that:
1) address it with the priest
2) if he refuses to correct the abuse go to his superior
3) if the matter remains unresolved then go to your bishop
And continue in that ilk if the Bishop himself is unwilling to address it.

Rosemarie

+J.M.J+

When Our Lord sacrificed Himself on the Cross, there were people present who mocked and derided Him. Some even turned the whole event into a trivial game of chance by gambling for His clothes. Yet that did not invalidate the Holy Sacrifice of Calvary.

One would think that, when He offers Himself in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the company of Christians, there would be no such shenanigans. However, even those who claim to follow Him sometimes make a mockery of the Mass. It's terrible, but such frivolity still does not invalidate the Sacrifice.

(I've already expressed my horror at the devil-costumed EMHC on other blogs, so I won't repeat it here.)

In Jesu et Maria,

Mark

Another triumph for free information via the internet!

Sunlight is the best disinfectant!

Randy

The question Fr Fred does not ask himself is why active parishoners didn't know that the costumes they chose were not apropiate for mass. Sure he could have and should have told them but why did he need to tell them? What didn't the spiritual formation they got from years of being active in parish life cause them to make the right choice? Isn't that what a priest is supposed to do? To teach his flock to think with the mind of the church and make good holy choices without being explicitly told what to do. I need to instruct my 9 year old on what is appropriate for mass. My 11 year old has it figured out. I don't need to instruct her because she is at a point where she makes good choices. Should a priest need to tell his most involved parishoners what to wear to mass? To me, it seems like a stunning failure of formation of conscience.

ruth

Esau, do you not have a sense of humor? Did you read what came before that?

Esau

Corrigendum:

Sometimes having a friend with a video camera helps as well.

I mean, I like the fact that we can actually capture on film liturgical abuses and present them as evidence in order to effect change to the point of perhaps one day where a properly celebrated Novus Ordo Missae becomes the norm in every parish in the U.S. --

But, must we actually go as far as to the extent of each of us coming into Mass,
with a video camera,
like some sort of secret police, focussed on capturing liturgical abuse in the Novus Ordo,
which can actually take away our very focus from where it should belong which is Christ Himself in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?

Esau

Esau, do you not have a sense of humor? Did you read what came before that?

Sorry Ruth.

After this post, it's almost all but evaporated.

Esau

The question Fr Fred does not ask himself is why active parishoners didn't know that the costumes they chose were not apropiate for mass.

Sure he could have and should have told them but why did he need to tell them? What didn't the spiritual formation they got from years of being active in parish life cause them to make the right choice? Isn't that what a priest is supposed to do? To teach his flock to think with the mind of the church and make good holy choices without being explicitly told what to do. I need to instruct my 9 year old on what is appropriate for mass. My 11 year old has it figured out. I don't need to instruct her because she is at a point where she makes good choices. Should a priest need to tell his most involved parishoners what to wear to mass? To me, it seems like a stunning failure of formation of conscience.

Randy,
Please help me with this post of yours.

So, you're actually suggesting that what the priest should have done was to inform the parishoners on the fine points of correctly picking out the most appropriate costume to wear for Mass?

The fact of the matter is that NO COSTUMES should have been worn at all in the first place!

IT'S THE MASS, NOT A FIESTA!

ruth

I am sure that it will cause a stir to point out that traditional costumes are allowed to be worn at certain masses.... I guess it would be better to say traditional garb (polish peasant dresses....) Of course this is not that case. But somehow I think that pointing this out will send Esau into the atmosphere...

Esau

I guess it would be better to say traditional garb (polish peasant dresses....)

Traditional garb, I have no problems with.

But, to have a Mass where folks are dressed up in ghouls and goblins, witches and warlocks, and so forth; it's just too incredible!

I mean, think of the children with their impressionable minds, what they're getting out of this?

ruth

I agree with you Esau....completely. I just wanted to see your reaction ; - )

Elijah

*choke*

This video reminds me of the video of Anton LaVey's black mass that I saw on the History Channel.

I'd give the priest the benefit of the doubt on his apology though. His sincerity (or lack there of, Scott W :P) will become apparent if, as we all hope, the bishop 'does his job'.

Esau

I agree with you Esau....completely. I just wanted to see your reaction ; - )

Actually, Ruth, I appreciate your posts. ;^)
Thanks for bringing some sunshine into this hideous post!

Now, if you will excuse me, I'm preparing my Worf costume to wear for this Sunday's Mass, who will have a Priest in a Picard costume celebrating it!

genevieve

This is the result of deplorable catechesis!! Where is the apology for the neglect of catechesis for generations now????

St. Elizabeth of Cayce

Not to beat a dead horse, but a-whole-nother is a perfectly acceptable construction back where where we come from in Texas.

"Whole" becomes an "in-fix" in the word "another." Think prefix, suffix, etc.

And yes, I guaran-darn-tee that there are those who abso-freakin-lutely disagree with the propriety of using this contruction in American English. I think it's fan-blooming-tastic, myself.

Lizzie,
avoiding the censors...

Brian Day

This led to the thought, "I'm sad about the idea of people doing hidden camera videos of the Masses in their parishes, but it's going to happen now and will play a role in cleaning up the liturgy."

But, must we actually go as far as to the extent of each of us coming into Mass, like some secret police, focussed on capturing liturgical abuse in the Novus Ordo...

I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that this was a hidden camera video. Still and video cameras are fairly common at Mass at my parish for things like the presentation of candidates and catechumens, or babies to be baptized. And there will be about a half-dozen cameras there at the Thanksgiving Day Mass.

I wouldn't be surprised that Fr. Fred Bailey knew that the video camera was there. With his apparent ego and disposition, I bet he was pleased that he was being filmed.

SDG

I wouldn't be surprised that Fr. Fred Bailey knew that the video camera was there. With his apparent ego and disposition, I bet he was pleased that he was being filmed.

FWIW, Fr. Bailey comments on the videocamera on the video. Points to the camera, says something like "A live cameraman… Hope he's friendly."

Phil M.

"I wouldn't be surprised that Fr. Fred Bailey knew that the video camera was there. With his apparent ego and disposition, I bet he was pleased that he was being filmed."

At some point during the mass (might have been during the homily), the priest does see the camera and says something like "Oh, a camera, I hope he's a friendly cameraman" It seems like he was aware that this cameraman might have been there to report on his actions.

BTW, can someone tell me how to put italics on when quoting a previous post?

Sylvia

We have trouble enough getting young girls in our parish to dress decently for mass (oh yes, and did I mention their mothers?). What kind of message is it sending when people are wearing "fun" Halloween costumes while receiving Christ's body and blood? People are just so flippant when attending mass.

Esau

Still and video cameras are fairly common at Mass at my parish for things like the presentation of candidates and catechumens, or babies to be baptized. And there will be about a half-dozen cameras there at the Thanksgiving Day Mass.

Brian Day,
I don't mind these types of camaras in Mass -- after all, I'm an avid viewer of EWTN!

But, when I said:

"...must we actually go as far as to the extent of each of us coming into Mass,
with a video camera,
like some sort of secret police,
focussed on capturing liturgical abuse in the Novus Ordo,
which can actually take away our very focus from where it should belong,
which is Christ Himself in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?"

I meant that do we all have to sneak into Mass with hidden camaras, aiming to 'catch the crooks' so-to-speak, just to capture liturgical abuse that shouldn't take place at Mass in the first place?

Also, I just think that there may be some overzealous folks out there who might end up actually going to Church with such hidden camara devices, and end up more focussed on capturing liturgical abuse rather than on what's the most important thing at the Mass and that is Christ in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass!

It's kinda good in one respect where the liturgical abuse is actually captured and may bring about swift resolution to current and other possible future occurences of liturgical abuse.

But, in another, it's tragic in that it actually takes the attention of these folks (who are actually attending the Mass) away off of Christ in the Mass.

SDG

BTW, can someone tell me how to put italics on when quoting a previous post?

Use html italics tags: <i>…</i>

If you want to get fancy and indent, as per above, you can use <blockquote>…</blockquote>. However, be aware that a Typepad settings quirk causes text after a non-paragraph block-level tag to use a smaller font, like so:

This font is smaller because of the open blockquote tag.
This font is smaller because of the close blockquote tag.

If you want to use a consistent font size, you can follow the <blockquote>…</blockquote> tags with open paragraph tags. Thus, my current post begins with this markup:

<blockquote><p><i>BTW, can someone tell me how to put italics on when quoting a previous post?</i></p></blockquote><p>Use html italics tags…

Hope that helps!

Esau

We have trouble enough getting young girls in our parish to dress decently for mass (oh yes, and did I mention their mothers?).

Sylvia:

I know what you mean!!!!

Actually, that's one of the very reasons why this post even more so troubled me!

In our Sunday Mass, we have some folks who dress like their going off to see a concert! Girls who wear skimpy outfits; guys who wear t-shirts and such.

The priests have all but already posted signs outside the Church, instructing folks to dress modestly for Mass; but these all fall on deaf ears!

Now, I come to learn just today that folks actually have gone to Mass wearing perhaps a Spongebob Squarepants costume, among other things!

Brian Day

FWIW, Fr. Bailey comments on the videocamera on the video. Points to the camera, says something like "A live cameraman… Hope he's friendly."

Thanks. I couldn't watch the whole thing.

SDG

The priests have all but already posted signs outside the Church, instructing folks to dress modestly for Mass; but these all fall on deaf ears!

Alas, in some subcultures people literally do not know what immodest dress is -- let alone modest dress. The priest can go on till he is blue in the face about it -- and I've seen a priest do just that -- but some people simply don't know how to dress any other way.

Rosemarie

+J.M.J+

>>>This video reminds me of the video of Anton LaVey's black mass that I saw on the History Channel.

I thought of the same thing when I first saw the video, and mentioned it on Mark Shea's blog a few weeks ago. Not that the EMHC's highly inappropriate costume somehow turned that Mass into a "black mass" or anything like that. Of course not! It's simply not suitable for someone playing a quasi-ritual role in a Christian Mass to dress in a manner similar to how the high priest of the Church of Satan used to dress at his black masses (Yes, I know his costume was more sophisticated, but it still portrayed the same entity).

Symbolism is an important part of ritual; the late Anton LaVey understood that well. He actually claimed that he didn't believe in or worship a literal, personal devil, yet he still made use of that symbolism during his evil rites. Catholicism, likewise, has a whole host of symbols associated with its sacred rites, including a prescribed "costume" (so to speak) - the priestly vestments. They are full of symbolism related to Our Lord; liturgical vestments are like the visible, outward manifestation of the priest's role as alter Christus in the Mass. When he puts them on (which he is supposed to do devoutly and prayerfully) it is as though he "puts on the Lord Jesus Christ".

So anyone with even a modicum of sensus Catholicus should be bothered by a priest "dressed as Christ" sharing the sanctuary with someone dressed as Satan. The crossed symbolism is just too jarring, as is having someone disguised as the enemy of our souls passing out Jesus the Bread of Life. How can any Catholic see nothing wrong with that? (And what does the priest symbolically convey by removing his vestments before the end of the Mass and dressing up as Barney the Dinosaur? It's just too bizarre to contemplate.)

Someone may say, "Oh, it's just a costume, lighten up." Well, if the devil and the other things worn by the other EMHC's were "just costumes," was the priest just wearing a "costume," too? They're juxtaposing the serious "costume" of the vestments with frivilous Halloween costumes during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and the result is just a jumbled-up mess of confusing symbolism. Are the Halloween costumes on par with the vestments or are the vestments degraded to the level of a Halloween costume? It's too much tossed into the pot at once.

>>>I wouldn't be surprised that Fr. Fred Bailey knew that the video camera was there. With his apparent ego and disposition, I bet he was pleased that he was being filmed.

Oh, he knew. He can be heard commenting that he hoped the person with camera was "friendly."

It strikes me that whoever made that video probably doesn't tote a camera to every single Mass there. He was probably aware of what had happened at past Halloween Masses and wanted to record this year's shenanigans.

In Jesu et Maria,

caine thomas

This reminds me of the shocking Kramer scandal. (How can we go forward as a society?) Think of what kind of noise that would have made in the news media if it was just based on someone's word? No one would ever know it happened. But you put the video out there and its all over everything like an oil spill!

There's a priest in my wife's parents' parish who has real problems with the Mass. He skips the Creed, changes the words in the Eucharistic Prayers and talks to his barking dog during the consecration. My wife sent a registered letter detailing these abuses to the Bishop and got a polite reply. She only got that because it was a registered letter and she made it clear that she would go up the chain with her complaints if they weren't addressed. The last we heard he was still playing games - she just hasn't been there while its happening.

If she'd have had a video of some of his antics, the embarrasment may have prodded the Bishop to do more - but that seems kind of disrespectful from our end. I'd hate to be at Mass waiting for a "gotcha" moment rather than entering the mystery. But it may be the only way to force some shepherding to take place.

Scott W

Sometimes, goofy English is the best English. :-)

Sorry to continue the digression into goofy English, but in addition to "whole 'nother", have you ever heard "same difference"? That is, when there is a distinction without much of a difference? My wife jumps on me all the time for saying stuff like, "Ohh corn on the cob or kernals on the plate...same difference."

:)

Esau

If she'd have had a video of some of his antics, the embarrasment may have prodded the Bishop to do more - but that seems kind of disrespectful from our end. I'd hate to be at Mass waiting for a "gotcha" moment rather than entering the mystery. But it may be the only way to force some shepherding to take place.

Unfortuantely, Caine Thomas, it seems more and more that given the times we live in, such dire episodes in the Church may demand it.

Although, perhaps if there were some sort of oversight committee, this might be okay (so long as they're discreet about it, not taking the attention of others away off of Christ and had actually attended/will attend Mass at another time for themselves).

I regret your wife's situation, though.

From what I've heard, due to the vast shortage of priests in the Church, this crisis can unfortunately play a factor in various disciplinary circumstances.

In some places where the church has only but one priest, the lost of that one priest alone can have tremendous ramifications.

Jonathan Prejean

To be fair, Corpus Christi is just weird by any account (for example, it's not even a real parish, just a "Christian community"), and it was spawned from a parish (St. Timothy) that isn't much less weird (it has no kneelers, they advertise seminars with Richard Rohr, etc.). That's why I don't attend Mass at either one of these places. I don't actually expect Bishop Brown to crack down on them, because they aren't doing anything truly rebellious, like kneeling after the consecration (see http://www.jimmyakin.org/2006/03/unusual_canon_l_1.html) or genuflecting before receiving the Eucharist (please note: tongue planted firmly in cheek).

joe

If Barney can't solve the "alleged" vocations crisis, nothing will.

I love you, you love me; we're a holy fra-ter-ni-ty. With a great big hug and a kiss from me to you....

Esau

Out Barney, Out!

Esau

Joe,
Please remember closing your Italics after the "alleged" sarcasm ;^)

By the way, if the shortage is not true and it is, in fact, "alleged"; then, this is certainly great news!

Personally, if I were in the place of the attending bishop, I'd get rid of all such hacks (should they fail to heed repeated warnings), who would actually dare profane the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in such a blatantly aweful manner, but it's not my authority to do so.

joe

Thanks for the reminder.

Re: vocations crisis: I don't know for certain, but I have found Mr. Keating's remarks on the matter quite persuasive--I'm thinking of an E-letter sent out some months back. In the letter--correct me if i'm off-- he compared two ways of looking at the alleged crisis (his and mr. Peters--alluding to a, I believe, distant article written by the latter). I found it to be pretty interesting stuff.

Mr. Peters, what did you make of the letter--if you read it--if not, you're undoubtedly familiar with the position anyway.

I'll look for the e-letter in my mailbox.

Esau

Thanks for the reminder.

Re: vocations crisis: I don't know for certain, but I have found Mr. Keating's remarks on the matter quite persuasive--I'm thinking of an E-letter sent out some months back. In the letter--correct me if i'm off-- he compared two ways of looking at the alleged crisis (his and mr. Peters--alluding to a, I believe, distant article written by the latter). I found it to be pretty interesting stuff.


Thanks, Joe!

I wasn't even aware of this!

Esau

Of course, it would've helped if I were a subscriber then!

Off to Catholic.com!

Monica

Maybe Jimmy will consider posting SDG's instructions on quoting and such as a permapost in case we forget before we have ocassion to quote again.

joe

to be more specific the dialog I alluded to above was concerning a future lack of episcopal candidates. the letter can be found at: http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_060328.asp

Esau

Thanks, Joe!

Brian Day

Bookmark this page HTML Tags for how to insert bold, italics, and other formating codes.

Kasia

I've also heard it argued (by Fr. Philip Powell) that there isn't a vocations crisis; there is a crisis of courage. His point was that God has called all the men and women we need to serve, but that many are not heeding the call.

I think there's probably something to the self-creation of the shortage. I think there's also something to Fr. Powell's argument. And there's probably more still that we're missing. The question really is only partly "what caused it" - we also need to look at what to do about it now. (And I don't mean "Gee, let's ordain women and lift the celibacy discipline!")

I just keep saying to myself, "Christ promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail. Christ promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail."

Sharon

Should the title of this thread have been 'Aplogy for the Halloween Mess'?

Richard T

"As goblins and ghouls, we raise one voice... Our Father...." (Although the "Addams Family" theme during Father's costume change and the Barney the Dinosaur recesssional are close behind.)


I am confused, is this a joke? is this real?

Thomistic

The two video snippets (Halloween Mass and Catholic Halloween Mass) available on YouTube are a fraction of what went on during those two Masses. The entire Masses were videotaped and DVD's have been sent to Rome, but that will not likely be enough to get the attention needed to clean up the numerous serious problems throughout the Diocese of Orange, which is why more people need to write to Rome.

I have met Fr. Fred many times, been to Masses where he was the celebrant, and even been to confession to him. I can tell you from direct experience that he does not support all Church teachings on sexual morality. He is extremely progressive, loves innovation in the liturgy, and has a large following of Catholics who believe him to be exactly the breath of fresh air the Catholic Church needs.

At one evening Mass I attended in the early 1990's, Fr. Bailey said (before the final blessing) that when he was a boy and he didn’t eat all the food on his plate, his mother would take what was left and place it in the refrigerator. The uneaten food was then served to him at his next meal. He went on to say that because most people had not received from the cup, the “sacramental wine” was going to be poured down the "sink". He chided the sparse congregation (there were probably not more than thirty people present) for not receiving from the cup, and was rather stern about saying that we should make sure that we receive Communion from the cup in the future. His demeanor seemed irritated with people for not having received in the manner he had intended and his words gave the distinct impression that he felt some of us were being stubborn.

When Mass ended, I went around to the sacristy as quickly as possible and went in. An older woman who also regularly attended these Masses (whose name I did not and do not know) followed behind me. I spoke with Fr. Fred Bailey and asked him not to pour the Sacred Species into the sacrarium. I was very insistent, but was not disrespectful in any way. Fr. Bailey had a bemused expression and spoke to me as though he thought e unbalanced for being so concerned. He assured me that it was not improper to pour the “sacred wine” down the sacrarium. He explained that it would go down into blessed ground and there would be no harm done. He was not aware that i knew what a sacrarium is and knew that he was in error to think his action would be appropriate. My efforts to dissuade him were futile, and he insisted that the Sacred Species would be disposed of in the sacrarium.

I decided that I would try a different tack and asked if I could please receive some of the Precious Blood at that time. His bemused expression of wonderment remained unchanged, as did his apparent continued perception that I was unbalanced, however, he consented (with a note of exasperation) to allow me to receive the Precious Blood. Initially, I had it in mind to receive all of the Consecrated wine. However, when I approached the table where the cups were set, I realized that there were at least four (and possibly six, I cannot recall exactly, except that there were at least four) cups filled with the Sacred Species. I realized that I could not drink it all without becoming intoxicated (at least to a degree) and, since I had to drive home, I only consumed enough from one cup that I felt would be safe. The woman behind me did the same thing.

Please pray for him. Fr. Bailey is (in my considered opinion) a deeply confused, heterodox priest who has led countless souls into profound error. Although the costumes at his Halloween Masses were outrageous enough to get attention, the myriad of other liturgical abuses captured on video, the banal quasi-rock music hymns, and the off-the-cuff, joke-laden homilies (often peppered with heterodox teaching) are common to almost every Mass Fr. Fred Bailey celebrates (at least the many ones I have been to).

What baffles me is that Fr. Fred's frequently appalling judgment and highly questionable liturgies have always been so brazen, and he's never been secretive about the things he does, yet he has never been (to my knowledge) corrected. What is even more alarming is the fact that Bishop Tod Brown made him a pastor, despite his long history of highly questionable (at best) practices at St. John the Baptist parish in Costa Mesa (also in the Diocese of Orange). I know for a fact that Bishop Brown had received complaints about Fr. Fred years before these specific Halloween Masses hit YouTube, yet Fr. Bailey has continued his antics, unabated, for years.

The saddest things about all of this is: aside from the costumes (and those things that flowed from them), much of what went on at the Halloween Masses takes place regularly throughout all of the Diocese of Orange (in terms of liturgical abuses, the rock music hymns, the inappropriate vessels used for the Blessed Sacrament, the prolific number of unnecessary extraordinary ministers, the priest sitting down while extraordinary ministers continue to distribute the Holy Eucharist, etc.).

Please consider writing to:

His Eminence
Cardinal Francis Arinze
Prefect
Cong. for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
00120 Vatican City State

As well as to:

Congregation for Bishops

Congregation for Clergy

Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

Fr. Fred also describes an earlier Halloween Mass (and demonstrates his theological perspective and homiletic style) here: "It's Just A Pumpkin," Los Angeles Lay Catholic Mission, January 2001

Here are some other things you can write about: Open Letter to Tod Brown, Bishop of Orange

If you need more reasons, see also:

The Sacrilegeous Halloween Mass: A Cartoon Commentary

Devils Distributing Communion: Bishop Tod Brown's Kind Of Diversity

The Blasphemous Halloween Masses: More Footage

Orange Diocese Halloween Mass: Listen To The Music

Now On YouTube: Bishop Tod Brown Refuses To Give Holy Communion To A Kneeling Woman

Bishop Tod Brown: More Defiance In Orange County?

Why Does Bishop Tod Brown Support Rod Stephens?

Bishop Brown To Orange County Catholics: Let's Get Spiritual!

Bishop Brown's Empire Strikes Back: No Tridentine For You!

St. Mary's by the Sea Liturgical Reeducation Camp

Cartoon: The Diocese of Orange Implements New USCCB Decision On Communion For Pro-Abortion Politicians

A Ban on Kneeling? Some Catholics Won’t Stand for It

Bishop Tod Brown Bans Kneeling At Traditional Times During The Liturgy

M. Archangelo

A party at the Crucifixion hosted by the Apostles.

Where would we be today?

Greg Elsbernd

...Those that blame this on Vatican II are very insulting to us who have sought out beautiful, reverent Novus Ordo Masses...

Don't you see the problem. You had to seek out beautiful reverent Novus Ordo Masses. Prior to the Novus Ordo, people simply went to the church in the neighborhood to go hear a reverent Mass. That's not to say that there were no sloppy priests, but I can guarantee that if they were, they heard about it from the parishoners, their bishop and everyone else who would refuse to stand up to any shenanigans when it came to the Mass. You sought, you had to search to find what should be in every church.

SDG

Prior to the Novus Ordo, people simply went to the church in the neighborhood to go hear a reverent Mass.

Even if that were true, and it's at least highly questionable, the fact remains that correlation does not establish causation. Other things happened in the 1960s (and before) besides the Novus Ordo that go to the problems we have in the church today.

SDG

I am confused, is this a joke? is this real?

Yes. It is a joke. And it is real. And if you think you're confused, just think how confused the people of Fr. Bailey's parish are. :-(

Rosemarie

+J.M.J+

>>>He went on to say that because most people had not received from the cup, the “sacramental wine” was going to be poured down the "sink". He chided the sparse congregation (there were probably not more than thirty people present) for not receiving from the cup, and was rather stern about saying that we should make sure that we receive Communion from the cup in the future.

Is this the "spirit of Vatican II" version of "Catholic guilt"?

So let me get this straight. He consecrates 4-6 chalices worth of wine for about thirty people - which would be too much even if everyone there received from the cup (which usually doesn't happen at a Catholic Mass). He then scolds them like so many children because they didn't finish what they reasonably couldn't have finished anyway, and tops it all off by pouring the remaining Most Precious Blood of God Incarnate into the dirt.

In Jesu et Maria,

Randy

Randy,
Please help me with this post of yours.

So, you're actually suggesting that what the priest should have done was to inform the parishoners on the fine points of correctly picking out the most appropriate costume to wear for Mass?

The fact of the matter is that NO COSTUMES should have been worn at all in the first place!

You miss my point Esau. I did not say the priest should give the fine points of what to wear to mass. I said the opposite. He needs to give people an appreciation for what is happening at mass so that they can make reasonable choices about what to wear without a lot of rules. This may even lead them to the conclusion that no costumes should be allowed or maybe they dress up as saints. I don't know. My point is he admits the decisions being made were bad. He admits that these people were not new to the faith but had been active for a long time. He doesn't go the next step and wonder why after a long period of formation his parishoners are still making very scandalous choices without even knowing it. Something is going very wrong with the dicipleship process. Fr Fred apologized for the incident but didn't seem to realize that it pointed to a major failure on his part to make his parish understand deeply what the mass is all about. Until he addresses that problem incidents like this are likely to continue.

Esau

Randy,

I appreciate the clarification, but looking at how the post was written, it seemed that way, which is why I was requesting the clarification.

Especially since it started out:

The question Fr Fred does not ask himself is why active parishoners didn't know that the costumes they chose were not apropiate for mass.

Sure he could have and should have told them but why did he need to tell them?

What didn't the spiritual formation they got from years of being active in parish life cause them to make the right choice?

Thanks again for the clarification!

Kasia

I am beyond horrified at the "sacramental wine" bit - both the terminology used and the actions Fr. Fred took. The fact that he chided the congregation and told them that the Precious Blood was going to be dumped down the sink tells me that he knew perfectly well that what he was doing was not appropriate. Otherwise, why tell them? If he thought it was OK, why didn't he just do it?

My priest told us a story at RCIA earlier this year, in response to being asked a question about how much is wine and how much is the Precious Blood when transubstantiation occurs. One fine Sunday he was celebrating two Masses in a row and had RCIA after. As he was cleansing the vessels in the sacristy after the first Mass, he realized that hardly any of the Precious Blood had been consumed (knowing him, I am sure he didn't consecrate more than he thought he would need for the number of people present). So he had a carafe and a half of Precious Blood there, he was the only one in the sacristy, and another Mass was starting in less than five minutes.

As he told us, "You can't just dump the Precious Blood down the drain - even down the sacrarium. It has to be consumed." So he drank a carafe and a half of Precious Blood - under the very alcoholic appearance of red wine - in three minutes. He said "I have no recollection of the Mass that followed. It could have been the best Mass I ever said; it could've been the worst." We all laughed, of course, but I guess I just took it for granted that a priest would not dare to profane the Eucharist. Sad. Very sad.

A.M.

1. I am not impressed by the apology. I think Father is sorry that (a) he got caught; (b) he may have precipitated a crackdown by Rome on the kookburger heterodoxy that prevails in that diocese; (c) the world is so full of Pharisees that fail to appreciate what a prophet he is and what a breath of fresh air he is bringing into the Church. There is no indication in the apology that he realizes what he did was wrong, and every indication that in fact he thinks quite the opposite.

2. Here's my two cents on the priest shortage, since somebody brought it up. I think the priest shortage is to some extent self-inflicted, and part of the problem is liberal vocations directors who weed out orthodox candidates for seminary.

3. If it's true that Fr. Bailey has thrown away the Sacred Species, there is a chance that, on top of everything else, he is excommunicated.

Esau

The first part:

"I am not impressed by the apology. I think Father is sorry that (a) he got caught...

This may indeed be the case and the fact that he anticipated certain action by the diocese (i.e., the attending bishop), Fr. Iscariot, I mean, Fr. Bailey, wanted to perform some sort of 'political gymnastics' in order to escape an otherwise potentially severe disciplinary action. With his apology in place, he might be able to hope for an even lesser punishment, if there'll be any at all.

About the second:

I think the priest shortage is to some extent self-inflicted, and part of the problem is liberal vocations directors who weed out orthodox candidates for seminary.

I'm more open to what others have suggested as to the shortage, but this one is not true.

The reason why is because the money for the budget for a seminary is allocated with respect to, among other things, the size of its attendees. That is, if there is a great size, there is more money that comes in. If not, and the size of seminarians is rather insignificant, the archdiocese may close it down, as had been done in the past with some seminaries. Remember, there is also that competition for resources even as far as the church is concerned due to obvious monetary constraints.

Of all people, the vocation director would be opposed to limiting the entrance of certain potential seminarians unless there is very critical reasons to do so, since it directly will result in lesser financial support, among other things.

Martin

Precious blood:

Thus the point is: One chalice and administer the sacrament by intinction.

I remember a high school mass with the same sort of issue at the end of mass. I drank two large glasses (yes, glasses not chalices) of the Sacrament.

It's a good thing to be Catholic ;)

A.M.

It's a good thing to be Catholic ;)

Yes. I wish Fr. Bailey would try it sometime.

Greg Elsbernd

Esau, as a former Roman Catholic who was told "I was too orthodox" and "Too straight" to be a good priest, I have to disagree with you and agree with A.M..

Deacon Greg Elsbernd
Synod of St. Timothy
Not affiliated or in union with the Roman Catholic Church

Tim J.

Greg -

Did you leave the Church because of that?

Rama

http://photoshow.comcast.net/watch/Td6kI8PP

A very interesting Halloween mass

not bad music

is the priest dressed as Satan?

the altar with black spiders?

Esau

Esau, as a former Roman Catholic who was told "I was too orthodox" and "Too straight" to be a good priest, I have to disagree with you and agree with A.M..

Deacon Greg Elsbernd
Synod of St. Timothy
Not affiliated or in union with the Roman Catholic Church

Please, I've read and replied to your previous posts here in past threads and know for a fact that you have but an ulterior agenda for saying what you just said here!

You could have, at least ,manufactured something more elaborate and clever than fabricating a story that a spiritual director actually told you flat out: "Oh, you're too Orthodox and too Straight to enter our seminary!"

THIS SOUNDS MORE LIKE A PUNCHLINE TO AN ANTI-CATHOLIC JOKE!

Inde venit...et hinc!

carol blankfield

Back to the subject: the "apology"

This apology is as disgraceful as the Mass.
He apologized for not telling his lay ministers not to wear devil costumes. It's a backhanded apology that STILL placed the blame on his lay ministers.
It's a joke. A sad, but true, joke.

If he had been doing his job(for the past 7 years) and teaching the faith, and teaching the adults and children what the Mass truly is instead of planning what costume could be worn under vestments (one of the many liturgical abuses which he did not apologize for)- they would have been as offended as the rest of us are.

By example, they have been systematically de-sensitized by him to reject and ridicule what is holy and what is proper.

Fr. Bailey did NOT apologize for ANY of the liturgical abuses HE participated in. That was at least as bad as him allowing someone dressed as a devil to distribute the Body of Christ. It is HE who is supposed to be transforming the minds of those people - to BE LIKE GOD! and to BECOME SAINTS! THAT'S his job. He's a PRIEST! He's not the social director of Aliso Viejo!

We are TRULY in God's PHYSICAL PRESENCE at the Mass. And Fr. Fred had a costume party - with a stage show that included jokes about making "the misconduct scandal look like nothing"(at which most in the congregation laughed). Comments mocking the prayers of the rosary ("vale of tears" comment) and the infallibility of the papacy. How inconceivable for someone who is supposed to be "in persona Christi".

He needs to be removed. He is a spiritual danger to all those at that parish, and his weak and lame apology shows he is completely ignorant of his responsibility to the Mass.

And because his apology does not include the things he DID, and the liturgical abuses HE PARTICIPATED in or ALLOWED as the pastor - people should be calling the bishop's office (714-282-3000) and writing the Nuncio, Archbishop Pietro Sambi, 3339 Mass. Ave, Washington DC 20008 and requesting his removal.

Don't stop defending the true Roman Catholic Church. We are not called "the Church Militant" for nothing!

Richard

This is further evidence that the Novus Ordo Church is not Catholic, but rather, who knows what. Nothing will happen to this priest, as this is what the bishops want, "Fun, Fun, Fun, till my Daddy takes the T-Bird away." In the meanwhile anyone interested in salvation is left in the cold. May the Lord have mercy on His Church and return to Her to Her Glory. RJM

Phil M

Richard,
The Halloween Mass was tragic, so are many of the Masses I've attended. Since the 60's, rebellious or ignorant laity, priests and bishops have been trying to hijack and recreate the "spirit" of Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass to reflect their rebellious or ignorant beliefs. However, this has no bearing on the authority of V-II or the validity and licitness of the Novus Ordo (when done by the book). Look at history, the Council of Nicea gave us the Nicene creed to combat Arianism. After this council convened, Arianism continued to grow for decades before dwindling. Have patience, and pray a lot, and do what all good Catholics are supposed to do when confronted with a poor liturgy. BTW, can someone tell me that is?

Will

I say the only thing he is really sorry for is being caught.

Richard

Unfortunately, many sincere good Catholics, who have been subject to the post concilar church, have not realized that an October Revolution occurred with Vatican II. The results to the Holy Roman Catholic Church has been devasting. They created a "wasteland", and called it a "renewal".

Why now over 40 years since the close of the Council people are still wondering about it's proper interpretation? The new mass eliminated the Catholic content of the mass and in it's place we have a prostantant Lord's Supper, so it is just not the Latin, and the lay readers, laity on the altar, communion in the hand, etc, we basically have a new religion.
Just hang around a Novus Ordo Parish and ask them what they believe, you have a wide range of belief, such as prostantants do. We have the post concilar popes contradicting the prior popes in areas of liturgy, ecunemicalism, and religious freedom, etc.
John Paul II kissed the Koran, prayed with heretics, schismatics and non believiers, a practice that was condemned and forbidden by the Church prior to Vatican II. So why be upset by a Novus Ordo Presbyter, who has a Halloween mass with lay people serving communion and playing music in Devil horns? After all the late pope kissed the Koran.
If you are looking for sacred you won't find it in the Novus Ordo church, it was done away with. This pope is more of the same ilk, and there will not be any changes, collegiatily has his hands tied anyway. This mess is tied into the Third Secret of Fatima, which the post concilar popes did not release.
In the end our Lady's Immaculate Heart will truimph and sanity will return to the Church, but not with this pope, who is a progressive, like the rest of the bishops and cardinals.
So stop holding your breath for relief it won't happen. I am at the point that in good concious I can barely attend a Novus Ordo mess, and I wish to find a traditional priest and the Mass of all ages, which Pope Pius V promogated for all ages, so in other words an indult is not necessary.
This Halloween mass is the tip of the post concilar nightmare, so in short, if the post concilar church is run by homosexual bishops and presbyters, why be upset by this transgression? We keep paying in, so are we not also at fault for supporting an organization that has left the Catholic religion, but in the October Revolution of Vatican II, keep her monuments and titles. Over time perhaps people are beginning to realize that the post concilar church is not Catholic, but something else. May God in His mercy help us all.

Esau

Phil M:

Richard,
The Halloween Mass was tragic, so are many of the Masses I've attended. Since the 60's, rebellious or ignorant laity, priests and bishops have been trying to hijack and recreate the "spirit" of Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass to reflect their rebellious or ignorant beliefs.

Tell it like it is, Brutha!

The abuses taking place in the Novus Ordo Mass is becoming all too many and frequent, and, as I've mentioned in the past, the result of rogue clergy and laity out there attempting to re-shape Catholicism into an image they deem fit rather than what Vatican II had actually intended.

More and more, there seems to be a greater Protestant treatment of the Mass, with hands up in the air for the most part, as if it's a Protestant Worship Service!

It wouldn't be wrong if it were actually a Protestant Service, but it's the *Mass*. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is being greatly neglected by today's Catholics and not being treated with the devotion it deserves and requires.

I see folks wearing plain t-shirts and tennis shoes in Sunday Mass. I wouldn't mind it so much if it were happening in a parish that was in a poor neighborhood where folks really couldn't afford proper clothing, but it's happening in affluent churches as well.

At least, in Protestant churches, the ones I've visited, most are in their best Sunday outfit. Guys wearing suits while ladies wearing the nicest dresses.

In addition, folks at Mass are actually chewing gum during the Mass and most usually arrive as much as 10-15 minutes late!

I remember when I was growing up, people were actually 15-30 minutes *early* to Mass, saying the Rosary as well as staying afterwards to recite the prayer of St. Michael.

This brings much worry over what the future of the Church is to become and what the next generation of Catholics is to become. I mean, will the Eucharist hold any meaning at all to future Catholics? Is it to become as meaningless as the bread and grape juice some of our separated brethren serve their congregation in their worship services?

God help us!

Bill, Tampa, FL

Although I too mourn liturgical abuses, sometimes what I mourn more are the sefl-righteous Catholic hardliners who are waiting in line for the kill. Why can't they demonstrate the patience and cunning of a Benedict XVI or the good will of you Mr. Akin? Sometimes when I read the responses to blogs on Catholic Answers or related sites, I feel like I'm watching the orthodox policemen sitting around like a bunch of vultues or hounddogs ready to pounce. I'm the first to say, let's strive for authentic Catholicism but with no mercy, no love, it's just a banging gong! Thanks Mr. Akin for presenting another side of the priest in question. That he appealed to his bishop for correction was a gesture of good will. Sure, I could list all the little offenses which he did not mention in his apology, but I'm sure if he knew me he could list all mine as well. Although I love the Church and want to be a good Catholic, I'm sort of like one of Walker Percy's characters at this point. I might be a mediocre and sometimes bad Catholic, but I still believe.

Much love to you and prayers, Bill

Bill, Tampa, FL

A clarification: When I mentioned Catholic Answers in the post above I meant Catholic World News. Although I use both as a source of information and news, I sometimes find it hard to deal with the mean-spiritedness of responders to their articles. My opinions about certain responders do not take away my love for both Catholic Answers and Catholic World News. I used to read The New Oxford Review as well, but the publication itself (and not its members), at some point, became umbearable.

obadiah robinson

I know I jumped in this at the last moment, but as an Orthodox Christian, I would like to let you know that such a sacriligious thing that happened in that 'Catholic' Church is totally inexcusable. That 'priest' should be deposed for what he did. The members who dressed up in halloween costumes during LITURGY should be banned from communion for at least ONE YEAR.

Mary Kay

This particular Mass is not a reason to bash 1970 Missal itelf. Unless you are very new to Jimmy's blog, the topic has been extensively discussed.

obadiah robinson

All I'm saying is not whether the 1970 Roman Liturgy is bad, but rather the abuses that take place in the R.C.C would NEVER take place in ORTHODOXY. Costumes of any sort DO NOT BELONG IN THE LITURGY!!! I feel sory for the traditional Roman Catholics who are FORCED to endure such nonsence. My advice is to go to a Byzantine Catholic Church if you are able to. They are faithful to the Pope and the fullness of the Holy Tradition.

Mary Kay

Obadiah, yes we know that costumes are not part of the 1970 Missal.

How interesting that the liturgical abuses in some Novus Ordo Masses bring out the "better than" feeling in some people. First those attached to the 1962 Missal and now the Byzantine liturgy.

Obadiah, I've attended beautifully celebrated Byzantine liturgies. I had that in mind when I went "parish shopping." Unfortunately the one in this area was so perfunctory that it felt irreverent even though there were no discernible abuses. It was such a stark contrast to my previous experience with the Byzantine liturgy that I would never go back there.

Bottom line: the Sacrifice of the Mass is the same whatever the form of a valid Mass or Liturgy, even when highly illict. I prefer some over others, but one is not better than another.

obadiah robinson

one more thing, I do not agree with what I call hyper traditionalists, In the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church,there has always been liturgical reforms.
When St. John Chrisostom was Patriarch of Constantinople, he revised the Liturgy of St. James, shortening it by TWO HOURS!
In the 1700's in Russia there was a major liturgical reform which the Patriarch of Moscow did to the utter dismay of the traditionalists of that day. It caused such an uproar that thousands of pius orthodox believers left the Church, and formed what is known today as the Old Believers.
In our day the major reform in Orthodoxy has been the calender.Now we have New and old Calender Churches.There has been much controversy over this, some jurisdictions breaking communion with the rest.
Well, I have to go, God Bless all of us who worship the Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one in essence and undivided. Have a blessed Theophony.

obadiah robinson

When You O Lord were baptized in the Jordan
worship of the Trinity was made manifest
for the voice of the Father bore witness to You
calling You His Beloved Son.
And the Spirit in the likeness of a dove
confirmed the truth of His words
O Christ our God
Who has appeared and enlightened the world
GLORY BE TO YOU!

obadiah robinson

To Richard, As an Orthodox Christian, it surprises me that you who claim to be Catholic, should remain in rebellion against the Catholic Church. We are taught that above all things, OBEDIANCE to the Holy Church is the most important thing, not what we think or feel.
There has ALWAYS been Liturgical reforms in the Church.
Why are you so proud as to think that YOU know more than the HOLY CHURCH? You should judge your own heart first, and never judge others.

obadiah robinson

I am disapointed that NOBODY responded to my comments, especially Mary Kay who seemed interested in what I wrote. I am not condemning anyone, I only wish to establish an on going dialogue with devout Roman Catholics, as an Orthodox Christian, I take seriously what the Holy Father has expressed about reunification of our two Churches. " That they all may be one..."
May God have mercy on us all.

The comments to this entry are closed.

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