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« GodBlogCon 2006 | Main | A Note Of Thanks »

October 13, 2006

Comments

Another_Bill

Yea well it would only be a scandal if you expect some the word Catholic to mean anything. I am quickly coming to the point where I feel the Church should remove all affiliations with any organizations which take money from any other sources except the church and private donors.

I know this would greatly shrink organizations like Catholic Charities and close most if not all catholic schools, but at least we would know where we stand. Sometimes you just have to start over.

I must be having one of those days. :-(

Scott W

The methods that we learned, we primarily learned from one man. He was not a doctor, but he was the best.

"Hi Everybody!"

"Hi Dr. Nick!"


Eeeeew.

Ann Margaret Lewis

Yeah..."ew" about says it for me.

Any chance someone will actually enforce Ex Corde Ecclesiae?

I guess not.
--Ann

Andy Nowicki

Is there any sense in which "Catholic" education in the United States today isn't worthless? It is commonplace to hear about such events as this, both at supposedly "Catholic" parochial schools and nominally "Catholic" colleges today. Just more of the fruits of Vatican 2, I suppose...

It wouldn't be so galling if I weren't a parent trying my damndest not to let my kids be corrupted, not only by the culture at large but also, incresingly, by the culture of the contemporary, post-conciliar Church.

Moe

I think I'm through with the Church... God is not the author of chaos, yet all the Church has is chaos... it practices little to no discipline in restraining its disobedient members, Church teachings on basic and major themes like the necessity of baptism for salvation change like the wind, it can't even enforce basic standards in the liturgy, canonizes millions of unexceptional saints... I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that the Church is the biggest sham in history and it is thanks to mass communication that we are finally seeing this. I am very, very disappointed.

bill912

Yes, the Church allows sinners in its fold.

BillyHW

In case anyone was wondering:

HIS EMINENCE CARDINAL FRANCIS EUGENE GEORGE, O.M.I.
ARCHBISHOP OF CHICAGO
Ordained a Priest: December 21, 1963
Appointed as Fifth Bishop of Yakima: July 10, 1990
Ordained and Installed as Bishop: September 21, 1990
Appointed as Ninth Archbishop of Portland in Oregon: April 30, 1996
Installed as Archbishop: May 27, 1996
Appointed as Eighth Archbishop of Chicago: April 8, 1997
Installed as Archbishop: May 7, 1997
Named Cardinal by Pope John Paul II: January 18,1998
Created Cardinal Priest in Consistory: February 21, 1998

http://www.archchicago.org/contact.shtm

I for one will write the good bishop a letter contratulating him on manifest efforts at preventing a schism. If only we had more bishops who made such incredible efforts at preventing schism.

Mary Kay

Almost speechless.

Scott W

Church teachings on basic and major themes like the necessity of baptism for salvation change like the wind.

No they don't.

Tim Brandenburg

Andy, is there ever a post where you don't blame V II for the evils of the world?

Scott W

Andy, is there ever a post where you don't blame V II for the evils of the world?

Hehe. V2 causing Catholic ills reminds me too much of anti-Catholic assertions that celibacy causes pedophilia.

David B.

"The methods that we learned, we primarily learned from one man. He was not a doctor,"

Was it Satan?

David B.

"I think I'm through with the Church... God is not the author of chaos, yet all the Church has is chaos... it practices little to no discipline in restraining its disobedient members, Church teachings on basic and major themes like the necessity of baptism for salvation change like the wind, it can't even enforce basic standards in the liturgy, canonizes millions of unexceptional saints... I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that the Church is the biggest sham in history and it is thanks to mass communication that we are finally seeing this. I am very, very disappointed."

And how does the state of your communion with the Church have anything to do with abortion?

David B.

Correction: It should've been "and WHAT," not "and HOW."

Another_Bill

Andy N,
That's why so many of us are home schooling.
Cut in income, Growth in Spirit. Best deal we ever made.

I think Dr. Ray is right - Living Quasi-Amish isn't sounding so bad. Less Media, Less Money, More God.

Andy Nowicki

Tim,
No, I don't blame V2 for the evils of the world, just the evils of the contemporary state of the Church. The world is doing a good enough job at being evil by itself. V2 is reprehensible because it represents the Church's inexplicable decision to toady to the depraved modern world.

John E

Back to life, back to reality: Growing baby

---
"I performed abortions, I have had an abortion and I am in favor of women having abortions when we choose to do so. But we should never disregard the fact that being pregnant means there is a baby growing inside of a woman, a baby whose life is ended. We ought not to pretend this is not happening."
---

I'm really stumped as to how to argue with a person who believes that there is a baby growing inside the woman but it is still ok to kill it. At least others (mostly dishonestly) try to justify it by saying that an unborn baby is not a person. But how do you argue with someone who doesn't even try to justify it? How do you argue with someone who doesn't have even the most basic sense of justice and morality?

Scott W

I'm really stumped as to how to argue with a person who believes that there is a baby growing inside the woman but it is still ok to kill it. At least others (mostly dishonestly) try to justify it by saying that an unborn baby is not a person. But how do you argue with someone who doesn't even try to justify it? How do you argue with someone who doesn't have even the most basic sense of justice and morality?

I have not done a history of the abortion movement to verify this, but I think I am seeing this more and more. That is, they concede the point that the fetus is human (having repeatedly getting their behind kicked on this point), but now are saying that even though the fetus is human, killing it can be justified. It is the consequentialist heresy taken to its logical conclusion. And I think it will either make or break them. I'm praying for break.

John Douglas

John,

I believe they are properly called "serial murderers." cf., John Wayne Gacy, Theodore Bundy, Aileen Wuornos, etc.

Publius

Would they be willing to bring in a Muslim who has committed honor killings in his home country to speak on the topic of honor killings?

Ed Peters

Andy, you need admonishment about the tone with which you are speaking in public about one of the 21 Ecumenical Councils of the Church. Consider yourself admonished.

Tim J.

Despicable.

Josef Mengele wasn't a doctor, either.

Let me guess... this woman was neither shouted down nor booed off the podium.

I guess on the far left that whole free speech thing only applies if you agree with the speaker.

How I WISH the Holy See would give a few of these big, nominally Catholic universities the boot. Just cut them loose. They are dead weight. No... worse than that, they are parasites.

I know there is this fear of schism, but I think we are at the point where we are losing more souls from a lack of discipline than would be lost from a formal schism.

If everyone and everything is Catholic, then the word "catholic" has no meaning.

I say, let the hammer fall.

Peter Edwards

Of course, you're assuming that it was a valid council in the first place.

bill912

No, you're assuming is wasn't.

Jimmy Akin

We're not going to have any Vatican 2 bashing here.

Cut it out now.

Jimmy Akin

We're also not going to have anybody spoofing or semi-spoofing other people's combox handles, so cut that out, too.

exactly

Right, Tim.

The word "Catholic" has no meaning anymore. This is not the Catholic Church of the Apostles or of the great saints of old. Neither Peter, Paul, Augustine, nor Gregory the Great nor Pius V would recognize this "church" as being "Catholic". It's a little too late to prevent schism. The schism occurred long ago when the "popes" deviated from the Catholic Faith and abandoned the See of Peter.

There either is no Church or the Church has been effectively decapitated of its earthly ruler. But to say that the hierarchy that presently calls itself the "Roman Catholic Church" is the very same one that was in antiquity is either deluded thinking or a bald faced lie!

bill912

Well, exactly, then logically you must believe that Jesus was wrong when He said that the Gates of Hell would never prevail against His Church. And, if you believe that Jesus was wrong, then logically you must believe that He is not God.

Esau

"I know there is this fear of schism, but I think we are at the point where we are losing more souls from a lack of discipline than would be lost from a formal schism."

Wasn't this the whole point behind the 'Mandatum' and the Vatican’s Ex Corde Ecclesiae, to impose some kind of discipline?

Unfortunately, it almost seems that most American Catholic Univesities refuses to align themselves with Rome; at least, in terms of accurately representing the true teachings of the Catholic Faith. This can also be said of those in the American Catholic Church as well.

Ratzinger once pointed out in regards to those teaching in Catholic Universities:

"...the theologian is officially charged with the task of presenting and illustrating the doctrine of the faith in its integrity and with full accuracy" ([sections] 22, italics added).

...For Ratzinger, the mandatum has more specificity, more gravity, than it does in the American bishops' interpretation. There is nothing in the bishops' version that speaks of accepting an office, or making the profession of faith, or taking an oath of fidelity, or being officially charged with a task of presenting doctrine. And more remarkably, later in the same document, the cardinal writes: "the theologian who is not disposed to think with the church ("sentire cum ecclesia") contradicts the commitment he [or she?] freely and knowingly accepted to teach in the name of the church" ([sections] 37, italics added). Yet the American bishops have written that those who have received a mandatum "teach in their own name in virtue of their baptism and their academic and professional competence." This suggests that the mandatum may mean something quite different in the United States than it does in Rome or perhaps elsewhere.

http://www.highbeam.com/docprint.aspx?docid=1G1:84738850

exactly

Esau,

An oath of fidelity means nothing if it's not going to be enforced. Paul VI had taken the oath against modernism when he was ordained a priest. Lots of good that did!

exactly

bill912,

That may indeed be the case. I'm not sure anymore. Either Jesus established His Church, and it has been without a Vicar of Christ since at least Paul VI, or Christianity itself is a sham. I can no longer go on with the farcical idea that what is commonly understood to be the "Catholic Church" today is congruent with the Catholic Church as it has been throughout the ages. Truth does not change. The modern "Catholic" Church says the same, but in practice, has changed in very fundamental ways.

Jay E. Adrian

Suppress the order.

Gene Branaman

So, in other words, they went to someone who was breaking the law to learn how to break the law. That's nice. Who needs training when it comes to a surgical procedure like an abortion? (Please excuse my sarcasm.) I wonder how many women died due to the abortions performed by Ms Arcana that she never knew about because she had neither the training nor the understanding of what aftercare is, she was unable to prescribe medication for pain, or anything else a licensed physician would be able to do. Doesn't really matter in her eyes, I guess, so long as the woman got what she wanted - the abortion. She admits that she was killing human babies but mentions nothing (at least in the bits posted here) that she was actively placing the well-being of women at serious risk of infection, etc. Shameful. She's admitted to practicing medicine without a license & should be punished for it.

"Church teachings on basic and major themes like the necessity of baptism for salvation change like the wind."

I respectfully invite you to prove this. Cite specific sources from documents of the Catholic Church, please. No, seriously, Moe. Name these "basic & major themes" that have changed & demonstrate when the Church believed baptism wasn't necessary for salvation, please. If you're going to make this claim, I request that you back it up with

Yes, Moe, stories like these are very frustrating. Loyala should be ashamed & we should call them on it. Better yet, there should have been such an outcry that Arcana was removed as a speaker. Bishops should be written & encouraged (respectfully & with great charity) to enforce the mandatum for all Catholic schools, not just colleges. We should not allow ourselves to fall into despair, though! Remember, just because this university is causing scandal - & a shocking scandal it is, too - does not mean the Church isn't what the Early Church Fathers, not to mention Christ Himself, said it is.

Gene Branaman

"The schism occurred long ago when the 'popes' deviated from the Catholic Faith and abandoned the See of Peter."

When was that, Exactly? (Pardon me for capitalizing your handle, I do not mean to mock it.) Please state specifically. Are you a different poster from Moe? When was the See of Peter "abandoned?"

"The modern "Catholic" Church says the same, but in practice, has changed in very fundamental ways."

Again, what has changed? Sources from Catholic Church documents, please. What fundamental ways has the Church changed? Seriously. It's very easy to make such claims, whether out of frustration, error, or ignorance of facts. But if you're going to keep doing it, out of respect for the knowledge base of folks like Jimmy & other posters here (which far exceeds my own), please give us specific examples to refute so we can have more than just a "yes it is," "no it isn't" discussion.

Moe

Gene,

Compare classical Church teaching to current Church teaching on:

the role and covenant of the Jews vs. that of the Church
the necessity of membership in the Church to be saved and what actually constitutes that "membership"
the necessity of baptism in salvation
whether speaking in tongues is normative of demonic possession or of renewal in the Church
whether the Sunday vigil mass fulfills the requirement to attend mass on Sundays
whether it is permissible to pray with, let alone share a meal with or invite into one's home, a heretic or a pagan

today's "Church" is not yesterday's Church.. it probably hasn't been since the Jansenists were suppressed

Mary Kay

Okay Moe, I'll bite. Give specific examples (chapter and verse, please) of where you see a dichotomy in Church teaching.

Inocencio

Moe,

We don't have to compare our understanding of Church teaching we have to accept the autority Christ Himself established to proclaim His teaching.

If you don't accept the authority of the current pope why would you accept the authority of past ones?

Because you chose (Etym. Latin haeresis, from the Greek hairesis: choice) who has authority and what teachings you will accept?

Does the popes authority come from you or God?

St. Edward pray for us!

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Inocencio

My apology for putting a bad link.

I was trying to link to the Pocket Catholic Dictionary

Testing

Esau

Moe/Exactly:

Thanks for listing specific points regarding your view. But, if you would kindly provide these in greater detail, that would be better, in order to learn from them as well as to confirm their veracity.

Just a word of caution though, please do not inadvertently mistake the actions of individuals in the Church as actions endorsed/taken by the Catholic Church.

There are some elements you've listed above that I believe may not have been officially endorsed/declared by the Catholic Church itself.

For example, I don't think 'speaking in tongues' may actually be something that the Church has officially promulgated as something clearly indicative of 'renewal in the Church'.

Of course, 'speaking in tongues' is said to be a gift of the Holy Spirit; but, not all who profess this and act in this manner can be said to be of/from the Holy Spirit since the Devil, too, can provoke such action in an individual just as he can portray himself as an Angel of Light (2 Cor 11:14 - Satan can disguise himself as an Angel of light).

But, to be fair, you must also consider that this can be a gift of the Holy Spirit as well.

The point of contention might be whether or not this was a gift that was strictly for those of the Apostolic Age and if it could actually apply to those of today; also, whether or not 'tongues' is referring to an actual language vs. some of the nonsensical languages that some consider 'tongues'.

Ed Peters

Inocencio, it's my feastday!

Andy Nowicki

That's cool, Ed. Hardly the first time I've been admonished, and won't be the last, I reckon. But the fact that you've admonished me doesn't change the facts about the sorry state of the Church in this post-Vat 2 age, wherein abortionists and abortion-cheerleaders are frequently given a platform to speak at so-called "Catholic" universities.

Inocencio

Ed,

St. Edward the Confessor is a wonderful patron to have and he is one of the incorruptables!

Have a blessed feastday!

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Esau

"But the fact that you've admonished me doesn't change the facts about the sorry state of the Church in this post-Vat 2 age, wherein abortionists and abortion-cheerleaders are frequently given a platform to speak at so-called "Catholic" universities."

Don't confuse actions taken by/in Catholic Universities as those of the Church.

In fact, below, you can see how Cardinal Ratzinger insisted that Catholic colleges adhere to magisterial teaching:

"...But it was the Catholicity of the nation’s Catholic colleges and theologians that arose as the first major issue at the news conference.

Ratzinger said that by insisting on adherence to magisterial teaching, Rome actually promotes academic freedom.

“As you see with a medical faculty, you have complete academic freedom, but the discipline is such that the obligation of what medicine is determines the exercise of this freedom. As a medical person, you cannot do what you will. You are in the service of life,” Ratzinger said.

“So theology also has its inner exigencies. Catholic theology is not individual reflection but thinking with the faith of the church. If you will do other things and have other ideas of what God could be or could not be, there is the freedom of the person to do it, clearly. But one should not say this is Catholic theology.” "

http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/022699/022699e.htm

Ed Peters

Andy, the opinion you expressed in your latest post is much more balanced, defensible, and respectful toward the Church herself. I still think it one-sided, as in, you have part of the truth but not all of it, but reasonable minds may differ. have a good weekend all.

Gene Branaman

"Okay Moe, I'll bite. Give specific examples (chapter and verse, please) of where you see a dichotomy in Church teaching"

Yes, Mary Kay, I agree. This is what I've already asked Moe for. Instead, he gives examples that can perfunctorily refuted. We he to provide such chapter & verse specifics from actual Catholic Church documents, we'd then have a discussion of greater depth. As it stands now, for those of us who've done our research, given what issues he posted, Moe either misunderstands that doctrine can develop over years & centuries (for which I'd refer him to John Henry Cardinal Newman's Development of Christian Doctrine available online here http://www.newmanreader.org/) or there's another ax to grind here he's not informed us of.

Specific documentation would be very helpful if he were truly interested in making his point clear to us.

Moe

http://www.romancatholicism.org/jansenism/papal-heresy-jansenists.htm>specific documentation

My Cat's Name Is Lily

You know what I find the creepiest about that whole quote? The fact that this woman sees absolutely nothing illogical about claiming to be "helping" women by butchering them...
I expect abortionists to disregard the unborn child. I just find it appalling that "Jane" admits to learning to kill babies from someone who is not a doctor. Is he a dentist? A chiropracter? Does he raise chickens for Colonel Sanders??
I only wish I could put this quote up on billboards across America.... Because, for my money, her admissions should at the very least, make a few people wonder what the devil they are supporting, when they talk about "choice". Sounds like a mean old woman with a coathanger to me....

Tim J.

Moe-

I said *IF* everything and everyone is considered Catholic *THEN* the word catholic has no meaning.

As it stands, I DO NOT believe that this is the case, so please don't enlist my words to support your sedevacantist (really protestant) position.

I do see a danger of the lines blurring so badly that it will mislead many people (like yourself), but I believe that Christ will not abandon His church, because He said so.

If Vat II was so rotten, why has Catholic orthodoxy and tradition thrived in certain corners of the globe? Vat II wasn't rotten... Western society was rotten, and still is.

I agree the post Vat II church in the West is in sad shape, but you are confused as to its cause. It wasn't the council that caused the problem, and no single council will fix the problem, either. That will take all of us living out the faith in our daily lives IN UNION with the Church Christ established. there is no hope outside the Church.

Esau

Moe,
Is the 'specific documentation' you refer to comprise the entire weight of your argument?

Based upon cursory inspection, it seems as if the 'ample documentation' that is referred to on that web page cites passages from the general audience, encyclicals, homilies and so forth; but, in all actuality, nothing that would be considered definitive on Faith and Morals.

On the issue of doctrine, just because a Pope teaches something in an encyclical or in a papal bull or in an Apostolic Constitution or in a letter, does not mean that it’s 'ex cathedra'.

Ex Cathedra has a very specific definition as given by Vatican Council I. The Pope in order to be able to teach ex cathedra must declare something to the Universal Church on a matter of faith and morals. He must be acting freely and he must say that this is definitive. So, that is what is ex cathedra.

Everything in an encyclical letter is not necessarily ex cathedra. The pope would have to say that he is defining something for Catholics for all time. However, as Pope Pius XII said in Humani Generis in 1950, when a Pope teaches something in an encyclical letter, it is no longer up for grabs. It’s no longer a matter for open season that we can reject and so forth because that becomes a teaching of the Church on what we call the Ordinary level.

Now, theoretically, the 'ordinary' teaching authority of the Pope is not infallible and, therefore, it can be changed by a future Pope and such.

bill912

The above "Specific Documentation" includes statements that certain popes (even St. Pius X!) were heretics. To believe that a pope can teach heresy to the Church is itself a heresy.

bill912

To clarify, Esau and I are not in disagreement. His explanation was fuller than mine.

PNP, OP

This is beyond sickening. Truly, the Devil has a solid grip on these women. I need a bathe.

Fr. Philip, OP

PNP, OP

This is beyond sickening. Truly, the Devil has a solid grip on these women. I need a bath.

Fr. Philip, OP

Gene Branaman

What Esau said.

It's interesting, Moe, that the "specific documentation" you link to has a section called "101 Heresies of Benedict XVI" that lists both what seem to be quotes from B16 & some that would seem to refute them.

All taken totally out of context so as to deny the reader the full point made by anyone quoted there &, hence, seeming to prove that B16 is a heretic. This is just what the Muslims did with B16's speech at Regensberg.

Interesting, that. It's called a "straw man fallacy," Moe. There may be some good work on that site but, honestly, what good there may be (like a link to a piece by our blog host Jimmy Akin) is overshadowed by the intellectual dishonesty of the rest of what's there.

Mary Kay

Moe, you linked to a website that pulls a lot of quotations out of context.

My guess is that you're referring to the paragraph about the "possibility of salvation for non-Catholics." But if I have to guess at what you're saying, that's not a discussion.

What's been asked of you is to give a specific document and show where that has changed Catholic teaching.

I would suggest that whatever document you pick, that you read the entire document. The ones that I've read have shown that core Catholic teaching has not changed.


Mary

Many women discuss their abortions the way a career burglar discusses his thefts: the way you or I would discuss chosing what to have for lunch. Moral issues? What moral issues?

MissJean

The woman they invited to speak is eerily reminiscent of Jack Kevorkian's comments about his "great work". Eery and evil.

Michael

I see that this thread has gotten off-topic but I would like to comment on the invitation of the woman to Loyola. She was invited as a guest lecturer in a bioethics course; I think this is substantially different than inviting someone to speak extracurricularly. I think it is important for young people to hear conflicting views in order to be properly educated and have their opinions properly formed. And as important as this is, it is even more important to do this under the guidance of an educator. This article does not tell us in what context the students discussed this lecture or her material was used in the class. The "scandal" appears to only be the fact that she spoke at the school. But in a classroom setting, there is no implicit or explicit endorsement of this women's position, especially since it is a valid one (valid in the sense that reasonable people with different ethical formations can disagree, as opposed to an invalid position like Bush is responsible for September 11, which is an opinion of fact with no supporting data (ie, crazy talk!)) and appropriate for a class discussion on the ethics of abortion. If an atheist was invited to give a lecture in a philosophy course, would that be a scandal? No. If an atheist was invited as the keynote speaker to Commencement? Yes.

Franklin Jennings

Michael makes a point, but I do not see how reasonable people, no matter how divergent their ethical formations, can merely disagree over the execution of innocent people.

\"I performed abortions, I have had an abortion and I am in favor of women having abortions when we choose to do so. But we should never disregard the fact that being pregnant means there is a baby growing inside of a woman, a baby whose life is ended. We ought not to pretend this is not happening.\"

I\'d rather here assertions that Bush actually piloted one of the planes.

Would everyone stop arguing so much and start praying more?! God never promised a Church with perfect memebers, but a perfect Church with imperfect members. This event is so sick, and it makes me sooooooo mad! But what are we going to do? Let's all just trust in God and pray! If you can think of some action to take, please do so! Otherwise, let's all stop getting to wrong conclusions and start praying---PLEASE!!!! Don't think I think we shouldn't do anything, but I think prayer and fasting is the best weapon now.

Kris

The plauge of the "modern church" is the same plauge the Church of St. Peter's time faced--SIN. Church councils do not cause disruptions in the Church, be they Trent or V2. Rather, the diobedience and pride of the Her members causes the trouble. Tryin to blame the sinful actions of the Church's members on one Council or Pope, or a combination thereof, seems to be a rather simplistic course of action.

Br. Francis

Sorry, that last post was from me!

Br. Francis

Sorry again!!!! I meant the second to last post!

c matt

But in a classroom setting, there is no implicit or explicit endorsement of this women's position, especially since it is a valid one (valid in the sense that reasonable people with different ethical formations can disagree,

I understand the point your making, but you are using an awfully loose interpretation of "reasonable". Truly reasonable people could not disagree on "ethics" given her admission that the unborn child is, in fact, an unborn child. The only ethical formation that would allow intentional murder of innocent human beings to be up for discussion is sociopathy. I suppose "do whatever you can get away with" is a form of "ethics," but hardly a form to hold up for reasoanble discussion.

IF the teaching of the Popes isn't safe and "probably hasn't been since the Jansenists were suppressed" there's been CENTURIES of sedevacantism!
(Shades of the Curt Jester satire awhile back about "The Society of St. Pius I", blasting the change in liturgical language from Greek to Latin!)

Seriously, though, in Newman's "Essay on the Development of Church Doctrine" he points out just how tenuous and imperilled the Church has been at multiple points in history. (I don't know how to set up a link, but maybe someone can?) In the past, God permitted a great deal of confusion among members of the Church because of human sin. Why should we have it better?

Finally, to get back to the original point of the post: more information on the context of the guest lecture would be helpful. In principle, it isn't wrong to expose students to the range of bioethical views (including non-Catholic ones such as consequentialism).

So: was there a contrary position presented, and how forcefully, and by whom? Had the students been previously given a solid philosophical formation enabling them to critique consequentialism on their own?

Yours in Christ, Rex

Tim J.

"Would everyone stop arguing so much and start praying more?!"

Being that this is an apologetics blog, a certain amount of arguing ought to be expected.

It keeps no one from praying. Granted, argumentation without prayer is probably useless, but there are times when one may be prayerfully called to argue.

Esau

"Being that this is an apologetics blog, a certain amount of arguing ought to be expected."

I believe arguments can be in fact helpful and necessary since matters are then brought into the light and this can offer us with an opportunity to clarify any misconception or misinformation that may be lingering out there.

Michael

The only ethical formation that would allow intentional murder of innocent human beings to be up for discussion is sociopathy.

Sigh. Perhaps I shouldn't have added that caveat because it seems to have distracted from my point...

So all Jews are sociopaths? The ethical formation that allows for abortion is not that murder of innocent human beings is ok, but that life (ie, human souled life) does not begin at conception. It is not a position I agree necessarily agree with, but it is a position that an intelligent person with a well-developed ethical formation can have. Now this person in question, who acknowledged that she was ending a baby's life, might not be operating under those ethics, in which case she may have sociopathic tendencies. So isn't that a perfect opportunity to lead to classroom discussion and to point out the differences between her position and a position that says that the soul enters the body when it takes its first breath?

Mark

"|" said "Would everyone stop arguing so much and start praying more?!"

Dear "|" (not the last "|" but the second to last "|"),

You sound really distraught and while prayer and fasting are generally recommended you may just need a good vacation.

Please don't discourage people from studying and debating these life issues. Our culture is at a very critical point on bioethical issues and it is necessary for believers to really try to understand what is at stake. For example, in November Missouri voters are set to vote on the Missouri Stem Cell Research and Cures Initiative which is being deceptively touted as a “Ban on Human Cloning” but which would permit an embryo to be created and then destroyed for research purposes, or to harvest valuable stem cells.

These are not easy questions to understand and the obfuscation from political leaders and from politically minded representatives of "science" pose a great obstacle. It is no time for a "head in the sand" approach, even under the guise of spirituality.

JohnH

I performed abortions, I have had an abortion and I am in favor of women having abortions when we choose to do so. But we should never disregard the fact that being pregnant means there is a baby growing inside of a woman, a baby whose life is ended. We ought not to pretend this is not happening.
As others have stated, this is stomach-churning. Does anyone else prefer it when the abortionists were at least trying to tell themselves that they weren't murders. Now they're proclaming it from rooftops "yep, we kill children, and that's okay."

Patrick

A.M.D.G.

+JMJ

Ad Jesum Per Mariam

Greetings in the Holy Spirit of Truth who enlightens all who desire to know the truth and adhere to it!

Finally, by the grace of God, the compilation of the Catholic Tract: "101 Heresies of Antipope Benedict XVI" has been completed. The tract follows the similar method employed by this same orthodox Catholic author in exposing the infamous damned warlock and heresiarch Karl Wojtyla that was published under the title "101 Heresies of Antipope John Paul II":

http://www.patrickpollock.com/101heresies.html

Nevertheless, it can never be forgotten that these errors are certainly condemned forever under divine anathema since they are contrary to that apostolic and divine doctrine once preached and received in sacred tradition (cf. Galatians 1: 8). Hence, anyone ascribing to these errors is not Catholic nor has the jurisdiction of the Catholic Church. For, as Leo X infallibly declared:

"And since truth cannot contradict truth, we define that every statement contrary to the enlightened truth of the faith is totally false and we strictly forbid teaching otherwise to be permitted. We decree that all those who cling to erroneous statements of this kind, thus sowing heresies which are wholly condemned, should be avoided in every way and punished as detestable and odious heretics and infidels who are undermining the catholic faith." (Pope Leo X, Bull Apostolici Regiminis, 19 December 1513, with the submission of the Fifth Lateran General Council, Session VIII, Tanner, Norman P. (ed.), Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, (London: Sheed & Ward, 1990), Volume 1, pp. 605-606).

Thus through the syllabus that we have painstakingly compiled with all the necessary scholarship and documentation concerning true Catholic doctrine and the misfortunate heretical tenets of Joseph Ratzinger, anyone with right reason will clearly see that such a man is not the legitimate successor of St. Peter, but an usurper of the Apostolic Chair, an antipope, and a heresiarch of the Modernist Sect.

We sincerely pray that Joseph Ratzinger and his Modernist sectarians will realize their heresies, abjure, do public penance, and make amends to all the damnable evils they have caused. For the Lord of Mercies will not turn away from a true contrite heart proven by unwavering orthodoxy and the zeal to do His Will in all moral acts. We also pray for Divine Providence to more abundantly aid the Church Militant in fulfilling their Christian duties during this unprecedented persecution of the Apostolic See, which has remained publicly vacant (Sede Vacante) since the death of His Holiness, Pope Pius XII in October of 1958. For the great majority of so-called "Catholics" are in communion with this Great Apostasy of Modernism, and for this they have all incurred the divine anathema from Almighty God and His Holy Apostles Peter and Paul.

The following hyperlink will direct you to my web site wherein the online text of the "101 Heresies of Antipope Benedict XVI" has been publicized for the Greater Glory of God and the salvation of souls:

http://www.patrickpollock.com/101heresiesofbenedictxvi.html

In conclusion, we must bear in mind the declaration of Pope St. Martin I at the Lateran Council held in Rome concerning the duty of all to declare the perpetual divine anathema to any innovator of divine dogmas and sacred tradition:

"If anyone according to the wicked heretics in any manner whatsoever, by any word whatsoever, or at any time or place whatsoever illicitly removing the bounds which the holy Fathers of the Catholic Church have rather firmly established (Prov. 22:28), that is, the five holy and universal Synods, in order rashly to seek for novelties and expositions of another faith; or books, or letters, or writings, or subscriptions, or false testimonies, or synods, or records of deeds, or vain ordinations unknown to ecclesiastical rule; or unsuitable and irrational tenures of place; and briefly, if it is customary for the most impious heretics to do anything else, (if anyone) through diabolical operation crookedly and cunningly acts contrary to the pious preachings of the orthodox (teachers) of the Catholic Church, that is to say, its paternal and synodal proclamations, to the destruction of the most sincere confession of the Lord our God, and persists without repentance until the end impiously doing these things, let such a person be condemned forever, and let all the people say: so be it, so be it [Psalms 105:48]." (Pope St. Martin I, The Lateran Council, 649, Canon 20, Denzinger, Rev. Henry (ed.), Enchiridion symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum, (Barcelona: Editorial Herder, 27th ed., 1951), n. 274. )

We pray that this tract will invigorate souls unto the conversion to the Holy Will of God, which they may ever follow unto their eternal salvation. We ask that each one of you pass this letter and link along to as many souls in need of this firm testimony of Catholic Truth, outside of which no one is able to attain eternal salvation nor the remission of sins. Finally, may Our Lady of the Most Holy Rosary help spread these saving truths expounded in the Catholic Tract, so that She may rightly exterminate all these heresies of the Modernists, as She is the Immaculate Crusher of All Heresies and the Mediatrix of All Graces. This we pray. Amen. So Be It. God Alone!


I remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ Crucified,

Patrick John Pollock

http://www.patrickpollock.com

bill912

Did a hobby horse just roll in here?

Esau

"We sincerely pray that Joseph Ratzinger and his Modernist sectarians will realize their heresies, abjure, do public penance, and make amends to all the damnable evils they have caused."

Sorry, but I have got to say this in place of a long defense of the Catholic Faith that I might otherwise attempt but out of respect for Jimmy and the Rulz, I won't at this turn. But, I have got to say: I just don't know who's the worse heretic here -- the Ultratraditionalist above who, among other things, actually depicts our current Pope Benedict XVI and our beloved Pope John Paul II as evil - or - 'Realist' who slices and dices the Bible with his merry band of Jesus Seminar fanatics!

Both have much in common: the Ultratraditionalist has made themselves infallible popes who somehow have the divine authority to excommunicate all those that do not agree with their version of Catholicism to the extent that they excommunicate not only those in the Catholic Church but the entire Catholic Church itself -- including the Pope! Whereas 'Realist' makes Crossan and all their merry band of Jesus Seminar heretics and so-called biblical scholars into infallibile popes that have been given some sort of divine authority from who knows where to dictate just what parts of Scripture they deem are authentic and which aren't.

Dear Lord,
Bless us with saints to rescue the Church from these attacks within as well as without! It's no wonder why God has blessed his Church with a multitude of Catholic Converts from other Faiths -- including Protestantism, so fervent and true to a genuine Catholic Faith and spreading such renewal! Thank God for these! May they flood into the Church to ensure that true Tradition is maintained as been handed down by the ages from Christ to the Apostles, the Fathers and preserved through the blood of martyrs and may those already in the Church wake up in their Faith in Christ and his True Church!

Fr. Lawrence

LifeSiteNews.com for Friday November 3, 2006, carries an interesting article. It is really just another manifestation of the managerial problems within Holy Mother the Church. These "Nuns" are latae sententiae (of themselves) excommunicated from the Church whether they realize it or not, whether they care or not. It happens without any Bishop's declaration. There is no official declaration required from anyone in authority since by Church law, a person incurs this state ‘of themselves and by the very act.’

What totally amazes me and has for many years is the approach taken by many of the Shepherds - putting their head in the sand and ignoring some core Catholic issues which they simply hope will go away. Terri Shiavo comes readily to mind. Those like my heroes Bishop Bruskewicz, Archbishop Chaput, Archbishop Burke, and Bishop Finn who do speak out with clear Catholic teaching are in the minority whereas, all Shepherds should speak with one voice – the voice of Peter.

There is a central problem with this notion of unity of teaching, a problem that needs addressing immediately. All teachings at the local church levels no matter how far reaching they may be must be in full agreement with the Magisterium (teaching authority) of the Church. There can be no dissent whatever. There can never be women priests, get over it. There can never be same-sex marriages, get over it. Abortion is always murder, get over it. Follow the rules or go somewhere else and risk loosing salvation.

The Vatican allows, defers to, and otherwise permits far too much authority at the local levels. The local Ordinary is final authority on most matters within his Diocese. To be sure there needs to be a certain degree of latitude in running a Diocese since each is often unique or existing under circumstances not common to the others. However, when it comes to Magisterial teachings, such cannot be the case ever. This very centrality of Catholicism, the Magisterial Church - descended from the Lord and Apostles themselves must speak as one. The disunity is causing the lay folks and many clergy as well to be more confused every day. As it stands now one Bishop remains silent about pro-choice 'Catholic' politicians within his diocese. Another censures the politician(s) forbidding Holy Communion until the politician repents. Politicians are always in the public forum and known to most Americans, some more than others. People are quick to point out that he or she is a “Catholic” and for choice, gay marriage etc. as if that alone makes it okay. Majority never equals morality – what we ‘think’ has nothing to do with changing the Ten Commandments of Almighty God nor any of His Son’s teachings. Nothing is more important that doing the will of the Father whether or not one is wearing episcopal black and red, a business suit, or coveralls.

Such matters need to be centralized and enforced at the Vatican level and no Bishop should have to make such decisions. He simply needs to be able to carry them out with centralized backing. No one wants to be the 'bad guy' and stand up and say here's the way it is - you cannot be and are not Catholic if you adhere to doctrines, policies and beliefs outside of the Church's teachings. It simply cannot be done; there is no such thing as Catholic and pro-choice, pro-gay marriage and all the other nonsense. Catholic Universities, Catholic colleges, Catholic hospitals, Catholic religious Orders, Catholic Cardinals, Catholic Bishops, Catholic Priests, Catholic seminarians, Catholic custodians and Catholic school bus drivers are the same -not Catholic if they deviate from Church teaching.

The abortion issue is paramount in this regard. Under no circumstances should anything Catholic be associated with murdering the new Holy Innocents. When Cain killed Abel, the first recorded murder, God said "The blood of your brother cries out to me for vengeance." When Herod murdered the Holy Innocents in search and with the hope of murdering the Christ-child, their blood cried out for vengeance and it was realized. What makes people actually believe that the blood of the new Holy Innocents (legally since 1973) is not crying out to God for vengeance? Politics and Church management will not, one day, make any difference and some think that day is coming soon. I am one.

How long can, yes can, a just and righteous God permit the abomination of desolation? How long will the slaughter continue? Man cannot nor will he ever stop what has begun. It will I am certain require God through chastisements to clean up the horrible mess man has made of creation, most especially that which is human and vulnerable.

This so-called American Nuns’ group calling themselves, The National Coalition of American Nuns (NCAN), has issued a U.S. voters’ guide promoting acceptance of homosexuality, abortion, “gay marriage”, and adoption of children by homosexual partners. The organization is also a strong proponent of women’s ordination and numerous. The group claims to represent between 500 to 1200 U.S. nuns. Its founder, "Sister" Margaret Traxler of the congregation of Notre Dame. Sr. Jeannine Grammick, another Notre Dame nun, and co-founder of the gay friendly New Ways Ministry, is currently a member of the NCAN Executive Committee. By the way, this 'order' was among the first back in the 60s to dump the habit.

I cannot get into the article itself without making more typos than I already levy on my writings - I get so upset. Please take the time to read it yourself. Take your nerve pills first if you're like me - it is the only way to get through it. Why are they still ‘Nuns”? Where’s the Sacred Congregation for Religious? Anybody watching this (since the 60s)? Dissolve these renegade “Orders”, suppress them abolish them…what began as a pimple has been allowed to fester as a boil which is now bursting with pus and nobody is doing anything. Like all infections, it has spread and will continue to do so until medicinal measures are taken. Where are the ‘physicians’?

Hold on, here I go. First and foremost, the local Ordinary within whose diocese these orders are present needs to issue one warning to the 'dissidents.' Then, if that goes ignored, he simply tells the order to get out. Yes, it is that simple - get out of my Diocese. No order or cleric can function within any diocese without the express written permission of the local Bishop. It is that simple and yet, it is not done. Where's the shepherd? The group of dissident 'religious' in the aforementioned article is one of any number of so-called Catholic groups, people, organizations or whatever calling themselves Catholic. Guess what folks, latae sententiae excommunication whether or not it is recognized, official proclaimed or not. Of itself, the very act generates the separation from the life of grace through the Church. Period.

Now, how to correct the problems I keep hearing about; lay people crying that they feel helpless and at the mercy of poor leadership within the church. People constantly ask me what they can do or express how depressed they are that their church seems to be in such a state of confusion. I agree it is more than confusing and should never be. Liturgical abominations are permitted to take place under the very nose of some shepherds who often participate in them themselves. Nothing from God is confusing - but there is an author of confusion and he is having a glorious time with the church and he has a lot of help apparently from within.

Lay people hold one of the major keys to rectifying the Church at their level where it has strayed. It is the lay people who contribute their hard-earned dollars and if things are off base, it is these very same people who have the power of the purse to let 'management' know they are not happy. It is the lay people who build the church structures, buy the vestments, furnish the rectories, and buy the fuels, electricity and food for the ministers. No funds, no local church. And no local church is far better than one that is an abomination before the Throne of God. No, don't stop giving to God by any means just redirect your tithe to a worthy charity that does His will. If the local Priests are not following the magisterium and not adhering to their Bishop’s authority and he does nothing about it, cut off the dollars and watch what happens. But it must be done in unison. Where to send money is up to the individual’s preferences but it is a sure bet that feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and sheltering the homeless far outweigh building a three hundred million dollar 'cathedral' somewhere and one in which Jesus is down the hall in a special room. The church was once the special house of Jesus not just a room in that church. While that cathedral houses a liquor store, restaurant and other amenities to include rental space in order to help defray expenses, Jesus sits in a ‘tabernacle’ that looks like the black box from a crashed airliner on a slab of stone or marble. Jesus would (and I think will) have much to say about this one. Lay people built it, remember that.

I support as best I am able on limited income the Priests for Life, Human Life International, Franciscan Friars of the Renewal in the Bronx, New York, the Missionaries of the Poor (Fr. Richard Ho Lung, EWTN, Aid to the Church in Need and the Children's Fund (100 percent goes to the kids) and others. You cannot out give God – ever.

Want the Most Blessed Sacrament restored to His rightful place in the Church (now Worship Centers)...you can have Him but you'll have to become more determined in your wants...power of the purse. Are you unhappy with things as they are on your parish - like those with the Drag Queen Bingo (give me a break), get the pastor removed and hopefully, defrocked - insist on it and nothing less. No parish can survive long without funds and it is right to give from our substance. But, we also are to be stewards of our resources as the parish or diocese is too - and if we, or they are not, then corrective measures are call for immediately.

Pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, pro this and that against Catholic teaching is pro-evil period. The Pope speaks with the authority of Our Lord as ensured through the Holy Spirit. There can be no dissention from the teachings of the Lord - none, ever. To permit otherwise is not of God for whatever the Church binds on earth is indeed bound in Heaven. Judgment will be according to those teachings make no mistake.

David B.

Patrick,


One thought:

Borrrrriiiiiinnnnnnnnngggggggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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