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September 22, 2006

Comments

Dr. Eric

LOL!

I wish I had a joke to follow up, but I don't

I think that we should have a little sense of humor about this. How many of us really didn't expect the Muslims to OVER REACT to any critique of Islam?

Jared Weber

I actually did laugh out loud at the second one. Picturing His Holiness doodling is itself enough to make me giggle.

John

I think this is making us look weak, the once mighty Catholic church. Last night on Conan Obrien he had someone on in a head shot of the Pope saying over and over how sorry he was and crying and then came another "German" in Arnold Schwarzenegger calling him a "girlie pope" and that he wants to be Pope now.

I see no humor in this at all and the Pope should not have backed down or apologized for anything

Martin

...the Pope should not have backed down or apologized for anything...

"Damn the Churches, Priests and nuns and full speed ahead."

Curious

What is really worrisome is how far the Europeans are willing to bend over to satisfy radical Muslims. At the rate things are going, Europe will be under Shariah in a generation.

Unfortunately, the Pope's backpedaling is helping to feed this trend. I love Papa Ratzi but I do not agree with his prudential judgements here.

How can one decry all religiously motivated violence (as the Pope does) and still celebrate Our Lady of the Rosary and the victory of Lepanto (which was a completely justified act of self defense by the Holy League, called by a Pope, to fend of Turkish thuggery)?

The logical contradictions are dizzying.

erick

"...when they start loving their children more than they hate us, then peace will come."
Golda Meir.
The idea is clear- NEVER!.
I agree with "Curious", give it a generation,if it's not because of the Jews, then it will be because of their intent on world conquest-at any cost.
Islam's agenda is too broad to stop it, it's political,ideological and religious.

I kind of wonder how German speakers can take Islam seriously when so many religious terms in Arabic are quite humorous when transliterated into German.

For example:

Man muss fuenfmal taeglich Salat machen.
("One must do the salat ritual five times a day" would be understood as "One must make salad five times a day.")

Allah sitzt auf dem Arsch.
("Allah is seated upon the Arsh--Arabic for the throne of Allah" would be understood as "Allah sits on his buttocks.")

Die Gesetze des Fickes regeln unsere Leben.
("The rules of fiqh--Islamic jurisprudence--govern our lives" would be understood as "The rules of getting laid govern our lives.")

It must be really interesting to hear an Islamic speaker give a sermon in German with Arabic terminology mixed in. :-)

erick

I'm not a Roman Catholic, but humm...did i understand "martin's" post right?.

Brother Cadfael

Curious,

How can one decry all religiously motivated violence (as the Pope does) and still celebrate Our Lady of the Rosary and the victory of Lepanto (which was a completely justified act of self defense by the Holy League, called by a Pope, to fend of Turkish thuggery)?

The logical contradictions are dizzying.

Are you speaking of the logical contradictions in your post, or some other contradictions?

John

Curious

Good post-Even Our Lord turned over the tables of the money changes as they were showing disrespect to God. I do respect B16-but he has been infected with the JPII disease of trying to be the "Rock Star pope" and have the world Love him instead of the Good Shepherd who would lay his life down for the flock and for their ultimate safety and Salvation which is the TRUE end game-not to appease false faiths

Jared Weber

Geez. Look, I don't want the Pope to apologize either and would like to see him strengthen our position on this but regardless, the frikkin' cartoon is funny.

Fr. Stephanos, O.S.B.

The Pope clearly said he was sorry for the reactions to his words.

He did not say he was sorry for his words.

I have posted the actual words he spoke in Italian together with a translation.
http://monkallover.blogspot.com/2006/09/message-of-pope-1202-pm-on-sunday-17.html
.

Jason

How can one decry all religiously motivated violence (as the Pope does) and still celebrate Our Lady of the Rosary and the victory of Lepanto (which was a completely justified act of self defense by the Holy League, called by a Pope, to fend of Turkish thuggery)?

Because that's not "religiously motivated violence". As you note, it's "self defense" "to fend off Turkish thuggery". Religiously motivated violence is chopping someone's head off because they don't believe in transubstantiation or don't believe in Mohammed as a prophet.

I do respect B16-but he has been infected with the JPII disease of trying to be the "Rock Star pope" and have the world Love him instead of the Good Shepherd who would lay his life down for the flock

I have no doubt the Holy Father would lay down his life for the flock. As others have been pointing out, however, inflaming fanatical Muslims needlessly requires you to lay down someone else's life for the flock; Pope Pius XII faced the same problem in the face of Nazism. The Holy Father is not afraid to speak hard truths, but his speech has been misrepresented, and people have/will die because of that. He never intended to engage in a polemical insult of Islam, and so he apologized for being misunderstood, but he did not apologize for what he said, taken properly in context. If he was intending to give a formal treatment of Islam, he would have made necessary distinctions and not just quoted someone from a thousand years ago. But that was not the purpose of his speech, and he never intended to make the quote from Michael Paleolagus his own. Rather, he was pointing another dialogue where religious violence was questioned, and noted that we would not speak the same way in our own context of dialogue, but the dialogue still has to happen. Religious violence is never ok.

Tim J.

That's my understanding, Father. He apologized that his words were misinterpreted, or maybe because he didn't make himself clear enough to prevent his words being highjacked and twisted by professional muck-rakers.

This is, of course, impossible.

Jared Weber

Fr. Stephanos: Agreed. I just said that I don't WANT him to apologize. And he didn't, per se.

Regardless, I still don't see how, as John states, these cartoons make us look weak.

Ann Margaret Lewis

No, he was sorry people took his words the wrong way, and he did give some more explanation of them. He has not apologized for what he said, though, and he has not rescinded them.

That's why some Muslim leaders are calling him to offer a "real apology."

But he won't.

BTW, he drives in an open pope-mobile. He's not afraid of martyrdom.
--Ann

Fr. Stephanos, O.S.B.

P.S. If you go to the URL I mentioned above, you'll find I've now added a link to video of the pope's message.

Curious

Jason,
Nice points and I understand the distinctions, but the battle of Lepanto was part of a crusade against the Turks. It was self defense and it also had religious motivation. As I understand the history, Don John's motivations in leading the Holy League were extremely motivated by Catholicism. The more we have to deal with radical islam, the more I find myself thinking favorably of crusades.

Another problem I have with the Pope's logic chopping is that the secular world is not understanding the message. Their takeaway message is that violence is always bad. That attitude will result in the West being Muslim in a generation. It is also emboldening radical islamic bullies.

Curious

Br. Cadfael: That was really cute. But didn't you fight in the first crusade?

Brother Cadfael

Curious,

Br. Cadfael: That was really cute. But didn't you fight in the first crusade?

I've had a long life. ;-)

Animadversor

I shouldn't necessarily say that the Pope isn't afraid of martyrdom, only that even if he is afraid, which would be quite normal, he won't let that fear hinder him.

Jason

It was self defense and it also had religious motivation. As I understand the history, Don John's motivations in leading the Holy League were extremely motivated by Catholicism.

Well, they were motivated by Catholicism in the sense that religion defined nations, and Muslims were attacking Christians because they were Christians. In this sense, you are not only defending your physical safety, but you are standing up for your right to exist as Catholics. But that's still very different from religious violence. Had Christians gone out to kill Muslims just because they were not Christian, that would have been very unjust; and unfortunately, there were a lot of people who did so during the Crusades, which led to many crimes and abuses. Our primary role as a religious community is to bear witness to love Incarnate. The martyrs, not the crusaders, are the most important role models in Catholic history.

Their takeaway message is that violence is always bad. That attitude will result in the West being Muslim in a generation. It is also emboldening radical islamic bullies.

This I think is a more legitimate disagreement with the Holy Father, and has to do more with social prudence rather than religion. He's in a tough position, because as a Pastor of souls, he has to be the voice for peace and dialogue. He does not only represent the Western world. But, I think Islamic fanaticism is not just a threat to the West. Perhaps the Holy See should be a little more hard line in how it addresses the problem. Only history will tell I guess, but I don't think we should be too critical of the Holy Father, because he has a great burden to bear. We're doing the same historical analysis on Pope Pius XII and his response to the bullies of his day. All we can really do is pray for the Holy Father for wisdom and prudence.

Mark

Jason,

I'm glad you brought up Pope Pius XII and the Nazis. I think that's a really good analog to the present situation. Many Catholics want the Holy Father to confront Islam with aggressive words and an aggressive manner. However, this kind of approach mobilizes the fanatics on both sides and can get people killed.

Pope Pius XII chose to work quietly and behind the scenes in order to save lives. Some allege he was the "silent Pope" but I think history will eventually get this right and he will be credited for his nuanced approach.

I believe the Holy Father must be very firm and incisive in his critique of contemporary Islam without being inflammatory.

Curious

Jason,
I think we have converged on agreement. I've been deploying my rosaries for the Holy Father and for the Christians who are literally under the gun right now.

Mark,
The analogy of Pius and the Nazis also occurred to me. Isn't it ironic that the same factions who fault Pius for being silent (he wasn't actually) are telling Benedict to shut up?

Brother Cadfael

Mark,

I believe the Holy Father must be very firm and incisive in his critique of contemporary Islam without being inflammatory.

Those would appear to be mutually exclusive, if inflammatory is considered from the Muslim perspective.

Brother Cadfael

Curious,

Isn't it ironic that the same factions who fault Pius for being silent (he wasn't actually) are telling Benedict to shut up?

Good point.

Speaking of Pius XII, I love the side-by-side comparisons of what the NYTimes said about him during and immediately following WWII ("lone voice crying out in the wilderness to stop Nazi atrocities") to what the NYTimes has said about him in the last decade ("inexcusably silent while Nazis committed atrocities").

Allena

Does anyone else feel like the media in general is just leading the public around by the nose? What's really sad to me is that most of the population here in the US will never read or hear the speech they'll just take station xyz's word for it that the Pope "messed up". Especially the protestants.

The rest of the world is doing the same and the media is making this happen. I really wonder who is in charge of the media, sure some of it isn't but I really feel like it's all slanted and anti-God especially anti-Catholic.

This is just like the sex abuse scandals, it was everywhere and made out to be like all preists did this, and yet I failed to hear one single story about this problem in other churches which I assure you it occures just as often, we don't own the patent on it.

Just an observation about he media and the half stories they seem to favor.

erick

Allena-."Especially the protestants".
You can -1 on that one, I am aware of what happened and and don't listen to station xyz!.

Dano

There wasn't any Muslim reaction at first- there was no reaction until the BBC started reporting on a controversy, at which point one occured.

Get that straight: There was no controversy until the MSM began saying there was. The media have manufactured a controversy to sell papers. I hope they're happy. I hope they're satisfied with all the deaths that may result.

Their takeaway message is that violence is always bad.

Yet, yesterday, according to Irwan Firdaus, Associated Press writer, "Christians angered by Friday's executions of three Roman Catholic militants in the world's most populous Muslim country torched cars and government buildings, looted shops and attacked a jail, freeing hundreds of inmates."

Curious

Dear "",
Given what we are learing about AP and Reuters using non-objective local stringers for photography and reporting (think Bilal Hussein and Adnan Hajj), I would be inclined to question the objectivity of Irwan Firdaus' reporting. Your quote has a number of suspiciously inflammatory phrases which sound inanccurate. Remember that no Muslims have even been convicted in the horrible persecution of Christians which is happening in Indonesia.

Curious

Note also that these judicially murdered men where not allowed access to the sacraments or Mass before the execution. That's the religion of peace for you.

Allena

Erick, Not sure what you mean, but didn't mean allprotestants, around here there are a lot of very anti-Catholic protestants, and that is who I was referring to. They often use stuff like this to say "See ,see your going to hell!" I didn't mean to indicate all protestants.

I don't listen to any media but the mainstream does, that's what I meant. I feel like all of the stations have a slant and usually against Catholics or Christians or anyone who isn't part of the sinful social norm we are experiencing in America, as well as else where.

Has anyone noticed the extreme slant in the US news (I mean abc, nbc, and cbs)against all conservative politions? This is kind of what I'm getting at.

erick

Allena-, You are quite right!.

John

Pope Pius XII may have been the Silent Pope, and was criticized for that, but at least he did not say that we must hold the Nazis "IN HIGH ESTEEM" and then invite Hitler to his summer resort as B16 is doing with the Moslems!!

HUGE DIFFERENCE!!

Brother Cadfael

John,

We agree on something. There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between Hitler and the Muslim representatives being invited to visit with B16.

Oh, and by the way, I haven't checked with him on this specific question, but I'm betting that B16 would agree that the Nazis should not be held IN HIGH ESTEEM. Just a guess, though, since he has some personal experience with them and all.

Martin

Sorry, my morning sarcasm (and at any other time) is off. I was trying to ridicule the prior post by making the point that the Pope could stand on his words and call for Islamic anger to rain down on the Church, or he could try to calm the upset people and save a lot of lives. I think the Pope is a big enough man to gladly eat a lot of crow, whether or not he should, simply to save lives.

I need to stop typing with my feet.

Martin

Christians angered by Friday's executions of three Roman Catholic militants in the world's most populous Muslim country torched cars and government buildings, looted shops and attacked a jail, freeing hundreds of inmates.

Reminds me of the Dutch priest who was arrested earlier this month for phoning bomb threats in an effort to stop Madonna from performing.

John

Anonymous

Did a Dutch priest really phone in threats to stop the blasphemy by a performer who is a devout Jew making fun of the central theme in all of Christianity? Well let me say I am proud of this priest if this is true, not that I would ever condone murder.

With ecumania running rampant and I just got finished reading an entire piece on the last 40 years how Paul VI kissed the feet of the schismatic patriarch in a sign of subserviance, to JPII's kiss of the Koran to todays B16's groveling-you wonder what is the real mission of the Catholic church in this day of ecumania gone mad. Here in NY the Rabbis have gone crazy over a Jews for Jesus push by this group by no outrage by hardly anyone over this mock crucifixion

hippo354

John, there you go again; a pillar of faith, hope, and charity.

StubbleSpark

The object of the violence on the part of Muslims is to drive home the point that all of us are now under Sharia Law. Not because we chose it, but because the Secularists gave the Muslims the keys to our cities.

I said it before in one of the other comboxes, but I believe this event holds more parrallels between St. Thomas More than Pope Pius XII.

Lily

"Does anyone else feel like the media in general is just leading the public around by the nose?"
**********************

Yes. It's infuriating!
With only the barest minimum of the Dutch I learned from my great-grandmother as a child & hearing part of the speech on TV, I was able to understand the Pope's German well enough to hear that he was NOT saying what the media implied; it was part of a larger subject. And you can't tell me that the media couldn't/don't have more knowledge of what was said & in what context, than something I haven't heard or spoken since the 1950s!!!
But of course, that would require them to show a little minimal respect for Christians.....

bill912

You got that right, Lily. Also, the only thing some media types can quote accurately is silence.

John

When the Moslem leaders meet with the Pope, are the going to apolgize as well for the burning of 5 churches and the killing of a nun? What exactly are they going to talk about? How the Quran blaphemes our Lord and we are OK with them teaching their millions of followers that this is OK? I believe that we should all "get along"-but what is the purpose of dialogue-Jesus told his Apostles to spread the Good News and those that did not want to hear them to shake off the dust from their sandals and woe to them as their fate shall be as Sodom and Gommorah. Does that still not hold true? Will this failed 50 year expiriment ever end with Ecumania and we all worship the same God nonsense? Where are the mass conversions? Have not seen them

erick

John-, " Where are the mass conversions?"
It has evidently started already John, in the halls of the Academics,the mass media, the political arena , and the phylosophical anthem of relativistic truth.
It's only a matter of time before it "dominoes" down to the religious. Hope i'm wrong!.

alex

Most of the europeans lack the courage to tell the truth openly.whoever it may be ,or whatever its consequences.If pope won't tell the truth,then who will do.it is not possible satisfy all the people if you tell the lie,then better tell the truth.pope starts a good discussion at right time.

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