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August 24, 2006

Comments

TJ

Some of the stuff on the website is reactionary, i'll give you that. But many of the points made are valid.

Veronica

Oh please. Criticizing the Pope for wearing a suit in his personal time? What's next, criticizing him for playing the piano?

Janice

Yeah, what's wrong with Pope Benedict wearing a SUIT? He's on his own time. And talk about properly dressed. It's not like he wearing a jogging suit or something. Actually, though, I think this picture is possibly from 2004 when both of them were on retreat at a Northern Italian monastery.

Janice

By the way, Benedict even has the suit jacket BUTTONED.

John

I think the point is missed here, at least the way I read this post. The Pope is the image of the church, and when he wears anything but clerical garb, it gives off a relaxed appearance, something I dont think the Vicar of Christ should show in public. I and many have no issues with him wearing whatever he wants on his own time, but he should not allow pictures to be taken of him wearing these outfits.

If I am not mistaken, there a pictures of then then Fr Ratzinger with the liberal theologian Karl Rahner at Vatican II wearing a suit and tie which has made its rounds along the different blogs

If the Rock group KISS can go for over a decade without anyone ever taking a photo of them without makeup to keep an "image", then the man responsible for over 1B souls can do likewise in my opinion

God bless

Janice

John, why don't you cool your jets until someone gets the correct date of the picture. I don't think it's post election at all.

Jason

It could be that a suit is less conspicuous and he had good reason to desire that.
Charity demands that we give the benefit of the doubt unless we have sufficient reason to think otherwise. Thats an old catholic tradition too ya know.

bill912

Didn't JPII wear jeans while skiing?

joey

What the heck, do people actually think they have to live and work like Monks or Nuns....always in religous Garb?

Some people just need a life.

Michelle Arnold

"John, why don't you cool your jets until someone gets the correct date of the picture. I don't think it's post election at all."

And, post-election or not, the same answer still stands: There is nothing wrong with a pope, cardinal, or priest not wearing Traditional Clerical Garb during his personal time. Granted, doing so can be prudentially advantageous, especially if a priest is "on call." But doing so purely for the sake of Image can actually be prideful (Matt. 23:2-7).

Michael

Back in the '60's and '70's, Pope Benedict taught his university classes while wearing a suit and tie. He actually looked pretty sharp! But this was conventional for German priests and professors.

I really am at a loss here...how does one come to believe that papal attire is a staple of our understanding of the papal office and the measure of its faith and reverence for tradition? I never realized that out at Caesarea Philippi, the Apostle Peter had to make an immediate custume change, Clark Kent-style, when Jesus passed over the keys.

I'd hate to see the traditionalist response to the papal pajamas!

Evangelical Catholicism

J.R. Stoodley

I agree, whether he was Pope or Cardinal at the time he does not need to dress up in clerical garb when not in public or performing a clerical duity. Further, I think it is unreasonable to demand he prevent his picture from being taken when he is in a more casual situation.

By the way, Michelle, why did you close the Meme of Noble Descent post?

Yankee Slacker

Who could possibly have a problem with this picture, even if it was taken sometime after April of 2004? I can only imagine that being the Vicar of Christ on earth is pretty demanding, and might even tend to take its toll on a man from time to time. I'm only surprised that we haven't yet seen a picture of a pope in sweat pants and Yankees t-shirt, while drinking a beer or two with a few of his friends.

Having said that, I do, however, draw the line with respect to any pontiff wearing anything associated with The Boston Redsox. That, quite frankly, is just something we can't tolerate. I mean kids could see that, after all. :-)

Monica

John, once in college our chaplain came swimming with a bunch of us, and, can you believe it, he wore SWIM TRUNKS! NO COLLAR! It is a bit odd seeing them out of their regular garb, but it was my job to adjust to the swim trunks, not his job to wear a collar swimming.

DJ

I think they're right and that is a tie he's wearing (not shadow.) But I can't be sure with the software I have. Dang JPG compression.

David B.

"No, Georg, you're playing that note all wrong. HERE'S how it's done." :-)

MissJean

The captions for that photo sound like the snippy sartorial critiques from old-fashioned gossip columns. Pity it's not a parody a la Curt Jester. Personally, I like the Pope's attire and think he's showing a good example of how religious should conduct themselves in "off hours".

Jeff Culbreath

"Personal time"? "Down time"?

I love Pope Benedict, and yes, I'm a traditionalist, but the real issue here isn't that he's wearing this or that, but that a pope (or any priest, for that matter) has any time at all which is perceived as "off duty". When is a pope not a pope? When is a priest not a priest, for that matter? To see a pope or priest without clerical attire is akin to seeing a married man without his wedding ring. When is a married man not married? There may be legitimate reasons for removing one's wedding ring, but it does raise a question, as does a priest who wears laymen's attire in public. In the past forty years we have seen both the clericalization of the laity and the laicization of the priesthood. How refreshing it would be for the Holy Father to set the example by showing forth the dignity of his office, which cannot be erased or forgotten at any time, by wearing only his "on duty" attire in public.

That said, I wouldn't be so hard on the pope in this photo. Perhaps he did not consider this to be a public appearance, even if he turned out to be mistaken.

Matt McDonald

Well and charitably said Jeff.


"Perhaps he did not consider this to be a public appearance, even if he turned out to be mistaken."

Perhaps it was a family gathering and someone just happened to have a cell phone handy.

Neil

Personally, I think the Holy Father looks rather sharp.

Neil

This is an example of Chesterton's point about the contradictory charges being thrown at the Church. When the Pope wears his white cassock, certain Protestants accuse him of pomp. When he doesn't wear it, the radical traditionalists accuse him of... well, whatever the opposite of pomp is.

tim

wow. is there no opportunity to ridicule the straw "radtrad" man that Michelle Arnold is willing to pass on?

gotta go gather me in around the table of plenty.

Jason

When is a pope not a pope? When is a priest not a priest, for that matter? To see a pope or priest without clerical attire is akin to seeing a married man without his wedding ring.

I couldn't care less if a married man was wearing his wedding ring. Maybe it's uncomfortable. Who cares?

To see a Pope without clerical attire is to see reality. He never ceases to be Pope, but our lives are very complex. Doctors dont' cease to be doctors when they leave the hospital, but they're not wearing their doctor clothes when they go out to play golf. What does it mean that the Pope wears normal clothing sometime, and isn't worried about scandalizing people because of it? It means that he, like everyone else, has a diverse life.

If someone is scandalized because the Pope likes to dress normal sometimes, then they need to find a good spiritual director and address that problem.

Jason

Also, when do we cease to be baptized? Should we wear a white baptismal gown for the rest of our lives?

Michael

Well, I certainly am not "scandalized" that His Holiness chose to wear layman's clothing. He does look pretty sharp, like the CEO of some major corporation.

And that, is the problem. I am saddened that this represents another opportunity lost. Another opportunity gone forever to show that Holy Mother Church is in the world but not of the world.

Dave Pawlak

Jeff C:

What a secular priest wears in his "off-hours" in private has always been his own business. A police officer needs time out of his uniform, a king needs time out of the crown and ermine, and a priest needs time out of his cassock. I will not begrudge His Holiness time out of the cassock and zucchetto, especially while taking some much-needed R & R in a familiar setting.

MissJean

Jason, mine doesn't fit anymore. :(

Tim, what straw man? Michelle Arnold hasn't misrepresented the website's position. Tradition In Action presents itself as a traditional Catholic organization and its commentary on Pope Benedict's sartorial sense are stated clearly, no?

Another example is this commentary on the Pope's sunglasses. I don't quite understand how sunglasses are some sign that our Pope is bad. Is is somehow more holy to squint and get sundamage to one's retinas?

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A138rcRatzSunGlasses.htm

The TIA's sophomoric commentary is especially annoying because supposedly they would like the Pope to address their concerns. But in the meantime, they'll make insipid comments about him their website.

CaeliDS

No offense to trads here, but just going strictly on the text that Michelle quoted, to say that a man is more "conservative" than his brother, simply because he's wearing a tie and his brother has an open necked shirt, is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Andrew

So when the Pope takes a shower, he should wear his lace and white cassock and triple tiara? I mean c'mon now people. The picture probably should not have been taken, but is this really an issue?

Dr. Eric

I would say that it could very well be an earlier picture as the Holy Father is not wearing his glasses. Lately, he has been wearing them more frequently than when he was a Cardinal.

To all those who complain about priests not wearing their clerical garb at every waking hour. We have priests here who mow the back 40 on lawn mowers, who load up dozens of boxes of apologetic materials onto flatbed trailers to evangelize and other back breaking tasks all in 90 to 100+ degree heat! Does anyone think it wise for an elderly man to be in a full BLACK cassock in the dog days of August humidity and heat??? Or, should they be allowed to wear jeans, tee shirts and ball caps while they labor in Our Lord's vineyard???

To second what someone else wrote, St. Peter didn't wear clerical garb, and the white papal uniform only came about because St. Pius V wanted to keep his white Dominican habit.

This isn't an issue, many priests can't wear clerical garb because of the laws of the states that they live in like Turkey.

Greg

My only question is this: If it was after his election as Vicar of Christ on Earth and Successor of Saint Peter, how come he is wearing his CARDINAL's ring? I think there may be some groups jumping to a pre-conceived "modernist" conclusion. Believe me, I love the tradition, and "traditionalist" aspect of the Church as much as the next Catholic, however give the Holy Father credit when credit is due. The ring he is wearing is not the one that has been seen on his finger every day since his installation. It is his "pre-election" cardinal's ring, as can be told by its simplicity and the fact that its only a band not a huge, breathtaking piece of gold.

Beth V.

Oh pleeese...

This photograph is in a series of several that circulated on the internet right after BXVI became Pope. There is one where he and his brother Georg are picking food at a buffet line at the monastery where they were staying on their vacation. Same suits, same open collar on Msgr. Georg. These were taken a couple of years before Cardinal Ratzinger became Pope.

And he ate in public! Shocking.

JGC

SUNGLASSES!!!

If he were really spiritual he wouldn't need no stinkin' sunglasses!!!

(cf. _The_Eye_of_Apollo_, by GK Chesterton)

or would he?

Some Day

I think this is a horribly good BAD photoshop.
The Pope is never on his own time. That is why he can wear the stole all the time.
His exsistance is already a part of ministering.
That is bad stuff. The Pope would never do that.
Please with the Popes that we have had before, with all due respect and ofcourse I take it back if it is a sin, but in comparison, Pope Benedict XVI is a saint. And regardless, he is my Pope.
No matter what he does. He is the legitamete successor of St. Peter.
That is all that matters.

Dozie

A person does not usually wear a suit and remain closed indoors. Where did Pope Benedict intend to go with a suit on? I am certain the photograph was taken prior to him becoming pope.

Rebo

I suspect this image is from when B XVI was still a cardinal. He and his brother were probably going to go out to dinner at a fine restaurant, and this is appropriate attire. Some people really need to direct their attention to substance, rather than incidentals.

Sharon

Men of that age are not of the tracksuit generation. Suits are probably their relaxation clothes!

Jared Weber

Please please PLEASE don't take this the wrong way. I love the Pope; my wife and I celebrated when he was elected.

However....

Dozie brings up the point that I've been wondering why no one else thought up: Why wear a suit on down-time? Why wouldn't he (as someone else posted jokingly) wear a jogging suit or something else more comfortable?

Maybe this is my Gen-X American bias talking here, but suits are NOT what I'd think of as casual-wear.

I don't attach any signifigance to this, I just think it's weird.

dean

Jared,
I'm not a tie person myself, but a well made suit is rather comfortable. Plus, he does look sharp.

Linda Cacpal

O Mio Dio!!!
Talk about whether the suit is appropriate for down time? I've seen photos - in fact, you can see several in his autobiography MILESTONES where he's in the garden at his home in Pentling and at a picnic with friends and at lunch inside his home - all in the same type of suit!

This is what he's used to wearing ... in his pre-papal days. And I KNOW this photo is not post-Conclave .. he did not schedule a personal day last August when he went to Cologne.

I looked again for the Ring - God bless the one who said it was his Cardinal's Ring - how it could be seen, I don't know - I must be blind! But no matter - I think he deserves to wear whatever makes him comfortable on his private time. I was just glad to see him walking about at Les Combes (STILL in white cassock) but without the formal sash! That's about as "casual" as it gets now, I believe. And by the way, did anyone notice Msgr Ganswein wearing black jeans when accompanying the Pope on his daily walks in Les Combes? Is anyone going to complain about that too??

Aloha from Hawaii

Janice

Who saw the cardinal's ring? I can't see it in the photo.

Rosemarie

+J.M.J+

I wonder what Pius XII or any of his successors wore in their leisure time? Must have been easier back then for popes to avoid the all-seeing camera eye when they weren't on official business.

In Jesu et Maria,

Bob McCray

Let them be. Who wouldn't have loved to be there, and to have taped the Mozart whatever they wore?

J. P. Stevens

This picture is scandalous!

Next someone will be claiming there are TOILETS in the Apostolic Palace!

Karen

My default reaction was *thud* Too cute.

Karen

P.S. Thanks Michelle, I love pics like this and send them to family who loves them too.

Chris Molter

I tend to be associated with the Traditionalists because I have a great affinity for the Latin Mass and, to be blunt, can't stomache some of the nonsense I've seen in the Novus Ordo Masses here in town. That being said, this is just silly. I'd love to have seen the veins popping out on the foreheads when the RadTrads saw the photo of JPII putting on Bono's sunglasses!

If Ben16 isn't Pope enough for you, then maybe it isn't the Holy Father who has the problem!

Alois

Toilets in the Apostolic Palace?!? Please, we are coming closed to reconciliation with the SSPX. Let's not endanger it with such scurrilous rumors!

Mark

Please see this thread over at the Papa Ratzinger Forum in which the origins of the photo are cleared up.

And why anyone fusses about things like this is beyond me. What would the Pope himself say about Catholics spending time worrying about a suit he wears while visiting a monaastery with his brother, rather than..other things they could be worrying about?

How do you say, "Get a life" in German?

HOw do

David

CLEARLY this man should be stripped of the papacy for bringing such scandal to the office of Vicar of Christ!

The cardinals should be called into conclave immediately to rid the Church of such a disgrace! What could they have been thinking in April 2005 when they elected this radical, secular modernist to succeed the likes of Pius X and Pius XII?!

Obviously, Josef Ratzinger is morally bankrupt and his choice of clothing calls into question his judgement.

A BILLION Catholics around the world will soon be taking to the streets because their spiritual "leader" has brought them such embarrassment that they've completely forgotten their abject poverty, their hunger, their oppression at the hands of cruel governments. This obscene photo so threatens Catholics' spiritual well being that "Pope" Benedict MUST be deposed, and the sooner the better.

GIVE ME A BREAK! I second the post by Alois: "GET A LIFE!!!!!!"

Jon

Jimmy,

Why would you print this thing? You're only feeding the monster. You'd do us all and Pope Benedict a favor by putting a post above this one explaining that the picture was taken prior to the Holy Father's election. It's clear by the ring, and not only that, I distinctly remember having seen it several years ago.

The Nitwits at another well-known similar site posted a picture not long ago of the Holy Father claiming the same thing. The picture was of Cardinal Ratzinger wearing black clericals. The only trouble was they were Northern European clericals, where that pointy little white collar is worn in place of the white tab Roman collar. What morons.

As for Benedict's day to day private dress, I have read that he wears a simple black cassock in private now that he is pope.

franklyn

Pope Pius XII worked in his office IN THE VATICAN in his shirtsleeves.Minus the cassock. And if you called his phone (the custom was you spoke on the phone to the Pope kneeling) you would hear him answer "Pacelli here".

At the Papa Ratzinger Forum, they say the picture is from 2004, when both brothers were on vacation in the Tyrol. So there!

"As for Benedict's day to day private dress, I have read that he wears a simple black cassock in private now that he is pope."

Jon,

I wish you'd tell Rocco Palmo this (Whispers in the Loggia). He keeps saying that Benedict XVI wears a blue tracksuit.

Chuck

My Mom always used to say the "you act the way you're dressed." I've come to believe that she was right. That being said, I think that this picture shows two older men enjoying a light moment, probably on their day off, dressed most appropriately. What would JPII have worn to swim in his famous swimming pool? A wet cassock would have drfagged him down to the bottom?

Karen

I'd love to see someone tackle the perennial criticism, "Why pay attention to it? By drawing attention to it, you make it worse!" As if that's axiomatic. Answer something, and you make it worse by drawing attention to it. "Oh, by answering Dan Brown, you are at fault for bringing more attention to him."

Jimmy? Michelle? SDG? I'm giving you a great topic opportunity here!

Stephen Heiner

Can I simply ask a question? Why does a cleric wish to wear worldly clothing? Further, do any good priests you know prefer suits to cassocks or clericals? Even in private? And then allow themselves to be photographed that way?

Jon

For a real look at the brothers at home.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw7WLTM3zok

Turn up the volume and enjoy.

Paul R. Hoffer

Maybe this is what the Pope/Cardinal Ratzinger would wear when he snuck out to feed Rome's stray cats so as to not bring attention to himself?

BTW, how hard would it be to ask someone at the Vatican when the picture was taken?

Ann Margaret Lewis

Is anyone going to ask him who he's wearing?
--Ann

Karen

That was so cool, Jon. My French is extremely rusty; I don't know all of what's being said. (I can read it fine but listening is something else). But we here did enjoy that video. I didn't know such things existed! Thanks!

Fr Raymond

This is a public room, a choir practice room, in Regensberg perhaps, look at the raked chairs. Certainly not a private room.
Msgr Georg is playing an electron organ not a piano.
It is a wet day one of then has just walked there, notice the collapsable umbrella.
It would seem to indicate pre-election

Karen

Fr Raymond, that is Josef playing the piano (or whatever it really is).

Karen

It's also a true piano, not something electronic or some type of organ faking a piano sound. Audio suffers with all youtube flash encoded videos. That's a real piano.

Ann Margaret Lewis

Fr Raymond is talking about the photo above, not the video.
--Ann

Michelle Arnold

Thanks to all the comboxers who pointed out that the photo is probably pre-election. I've updated the post.

MO

Tim, what straw man? Michelle Arnold hasn't misrepresented the website's position. Tradition In Action presents itself as a traditional Catholic organization and its commentary on Pope Benedict's sartorial sense are stated clearly, no?.

Two points about this comment:

1. While Tradition in Action does often cross the line into the ridiculous (with a number of photos of the "Here, the pope compromises the dignity of the papacy by smiling! Gasp!" variety), they also have as many legitimate complaints that should be addressed.

What of the photo of Cardinal Mahony consecrating the Precious Blood in a glass lemonade jar? The half-naked Jesuit performing an obscene dance before the tabernacle? The bare-breasted women reading the Epistle at Mass?

Clinton and Kerry receiving the Blessed Sacrament? Ladies in leotards dancing during papal Masses? Eulogizing the heretic Martin Luther?

Why no indignation about that? Shall we revise the Gospels and postulate that maybe, perhaps, St. Peter and the early Christians used earthenware jars, so we should do so? Or it's ridiculous to use Latin in the liturgy, because the early Christians used Greek, and Christ spoke Aramaic?

The danger is seeing 8-10 stupid photos by TIA, thinking that the whole site is like that, and dismissing LEGITIMATE concerns.

MO

2. About straw "radtrads"; I must agree, and use the dreaded term "neo-Catholic," to describe those Catholics who, in a genuine desire to stave off radical traditionalism (which isn't traditional at all), SSPX-ism, etc., who attack each and every manifestation of legitimate questioning of papal authority.

One such example, for instance, was Ms. Arnold's post "Surviving Sunday Mass." This is exactly what we are talking about; why "survive" the Holy Sacrifice when the TLM down the street does a fine job, by the rubrics, and was promulgated by a saint? No cutting out prayers, no excising pleas to the Blessed Virgin, mentions of Hell, purgatory, no profanation of the Holy Sacrament or changing the Lord's words of consecration. Instead, Ms. Arnold says she doesn't want to go "radtrad" and so invents her own liturgy, kneeling when others sit, saying the Creed when everyone else is singing, and generally doing exactly what she criticizes "radtrads" for.

An important point; someone who disagrees with the Holy Father, who doesn't think everything the pope mumbles in his sleep is infallible, who loves the TLM and doesn't think Pope Paul VI and Bugnini are saints who had no seedier motives in doing away with 1000 years of tradition...such a person ISN'T a radical.

Eileen R

Jimmy, Michelle, did you note that the poster at the Papa Ratzinger forums was talking about "Akin's wife Michelle?"

FI

I cannot understand the analaogy used by some of swimming or jogging. Ceratinly no one expects a priest, cardinal, or pope to wear clerical garb in such examples.

Relaxing with family or fiends playing the piano is not the same thing. Why is a dress suite more comfortable tham a black suite and roman collar?

"The Directory for the Ministry and Life of Priests, prepared by the
Congregation for the Clergy and approved by Pope John Paul II on
January 31, 1994, says:...

For this reason, the cleric should wear "suitable clerical clothing,
according to the norms issued by the Episcopal Conference and
according to legitimate local customs." (Canon 284) This means that
such clothing, when it is not the cassock, should be distinct from
the manner in which laymen dress, and in conformity with the dignity
and sacredness of the ministry.

Apart from entirely exceptional circumstances, the non-use of
clerical clothing on the part of the cleric can manifest a weak sense
of his own identity as a pastor completely dedicated to the service
of the Church (# 66)...

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PRIESTS/RMCOLLAR.TXT


I guess I am just wondering why the cardinal felt it necessary to wear a secular suit?

Karen

I see, I stand corrected Ann!

Michelle Arnold

"Jimmy, Michelle, did you note that the poster at the Papa Ratzinger forums was talking about 'Akin's wife Michelle?'"

No, I didn't see that. For the record, the poster is incorrect. Jimmy and I are not related, either by blood or by marriage.

FI,

If you read Jon's post, you noted that Cardinal Ratzinger was wearing European clericals:

"The Nitwits at another well-known similar site posted a picture not long ago of the Holy Father claiming the same thing. The picture was of Cardinal Ratzinger wearing black clericals. The only trouble was they were Northern European clericals, where that pointy little white collar is worn in place of the white tab Roman collar. What morons."

Donato

No priest is required to wear priestly clothing while "in house" (private).

Leigh

Re. the picture of the bare-breasted woman reading the Gospel, IIRC this picture was from an event that took place in one of the islands off Southeast Asia, where grass skirts and little else are normal attire for the locals. In fact, IIRC, she is wearing the adornments that a woman of her people would wear to appear before a paramount chief or other VIP. IOW, she is showing respect in the Gospel in the manner of her culture.

Furthermore, that is a region without any textile industry -- which means if the people are expected to wear Western-style garments to "show respect," acquiring them is going to make the people perpetually dependent upon either Western donations or somehow plugging into the Western cash economy (which usually means exploitation, either by selling raw materials for First World industries, or opening the country to goggling tourists who go to "look at the colorful natives").

I've noticed a definite strain of racism in a lot of these radTrad complaints against supposedly "inappropriate dress" of Third World peoples meeting the Pope or other dignitaries. Not the ugly sort of murderous or exploitative racism, but more of the genteel "our little brown brothers" racism that was common among the upper class of the US and Western Europe at the turn of the last century. A condescending view of the local cultures, combined with a determination that, for their own good, they should be forcibly turned into ersatz Westerners -- but always second-rate imitations, never our equals.

Francis DS

Well, good thing Ratzinger isn't a kilt-wearring Scot.

Marco, Triumphalistic Papist

This picture is obviously pre-election. So what? The two old geezers are relaxing. I have many clerical friends (including a bishop) and we've all been out to dinner or whatever with them wearing civies. No big deal. Everyone take a breath and relax!

MO

A condescending view of the local cultures, combined with a determination that, for their own good, they should be forcibly turned into ersatz Westerners -- but always second-rate imitations, never our equals.

I am not sure which traditionalists you are referring to, but I will state that I have never entertained such a racist thought.

Within reason, local customs should be respected. But when we fall into the sort of relativism that allows everything to go on the basis of "respecting others' cultures," well...we fall into the evil of relativism.

Adam and Eve were ashamed and covered themselves. It's been that way for many tens of thousands of years. Without promoting racism or condescension, perhaps it is time to inform those female lectors that revealing one's breasts at the Holy Mass is not acceptable in Western culture.

Your argument was the same one used several years ago when a Nigerian artist depicted the Blessed Virgin Mary surrounded by elephant dung. It was argued that dung is a "sign of great respect" in Nigerian culture. NYc mayor Rudolph Guiliani effectually said "screw cultural difference" and, if I recall rightly, pulled public funding for that exhibit.

So let's leave that sort of relativism with the same brand of thought that considers bongo drums acceptable musical instruments at Mass because "other culutures are different, so it must be OK." Nope.

FI

"FI,

If you read Jon's post, you noted that Cardinal Ratzinger was wearing European clericals:"

The pic posted here shows two men in dress shirts. One with a tie and one without. Niether appears to be European clericals. Perhaps I am missing something?

MO

P.S. While it may be possible to make arguments about some of the more nitpicking photos on TIA, the big ones I mentioned are inexcusable and cause for real concern.

The very, very radical site known as Traditio (which views, let me make it clear, describing the Sacred Hosts consecrated at NO Masses to be "cookies" I do not support in any way, nor do I concur with anything at all except their love for the TLM) also has a series of photos from NO Masses. There are priests "consecrating" coffee and Mountain Dew, clown Masses, rainbow sash Masses, Charismaticism...and some of these are celebrated by cardinals and bishops!

You might be tempted to say that this is a rare oddball Mass, until you see the sheer number of them. It's a real problem, and one, I'm afraid, that the NO Mass implicitly allows. Memorial Acclamation A, Penitential Rite C, Greeting B, Eucharistic prayer II, this prayer or "similar words..." halfway through the Mass, there are about 108 different possible permutations a priest can use and still be "following the rubrics."

David B.

Jimmy and Michelle Akin. Now that would be an indefatiguable duo!!

Brother Cadfael

MO,

It's a real problem, and one, I'm afraid, that the NO Mass implicitly allows.

Yes, it's a real problem. No, it's not one allowed, implicitly or explicitly, by the NO Mass.

Dozie

The good thing about the picture is that it shows the closeness between the two brothers - something very admirable. The picture seems to be emphasizing the two individuals as brothers - in a family situation - rather than as priets.

However, regardless of when the picture was taken, I would be opposed to a Cardinal wearing a business suit in public. This confusion of priestly identity is one of the major shortcomings of the priesthood in the West. I am used to seeing priets and even seminarians wearing, and being comfortable with, their cassocks in public. For a pope to wear a business suit at any time is simply tacky.

I remember certain Monsignor involved in liturgical translations saying "When religious people get together they talk endlessly about other people's clothes. One might think religion was about clothes".
He has insight doesn't he?.

Brother Cadfael

For a pope to wear a business suit at any time is simply tacky.

Almost as tacky as comboxers criticizing him for it. Almost, but not quite.

MissJean

MO, my original comment was that Michelle Arnold wasn't using a strawman. Any point you wanted to make to me was lost when you presented your strawmen. (Especially about people thinking the Pope mumbling infallabilities in his sleep. That's just insulting.)

John

I guess I am the only one who believes a Pope should dress like a Pope at all times

I once went to a "traditional wedding" at a chapel in which there had to be 25 nuns wearing full black garb and habits. It was August and had to be close to 100 degrees

My wife and I struck up a conversation with some of the nuns, who could not have been more than 30 years old, and I asked her if she was hot wearing black and covered all up on such a hot day

Her answer sticks with me to this day. She said "It is the least I can do as a Daughter of Mary, as Jesus suffered so much on the cross for me and my sins, and you as well she said, that a little bit of sacrifice in wearing what symbolizes someone devout to the church and Christ is not to much to ask".

This is exactly what is wrong with the church today after the council, where really anything is deemed acceptable and sacrifice and standards and morals are as one feels they should abide by, really no different today than the Protestants

Many here can make fun of traditionals all you want, but maybe they are the "few" our Lord spoke of when he shall return as true to the faith

If the Pope feels to "uncomfortable" wearing his cassock-then we have the wrong man as Pope

God bless

Rosemarie

+J.M.J+

>>>I've noticed a definite strain of racism in a lot of these radTrad complaints against supposedly "inappropriate dress" of Third World peoples meeting the Pope or other dignitaries.

What bothers me is how some extreme traditionalists call the New Guinea Mass in question "pornographic" and an occasion of sin, yet they still publish the UNCENSORED photos of the event on their web sites! By their own standards, therefore, their websites have pornographic content and are an occasion of sin to visitors.

I mean, it's not like it would be that difficult to "censor" the photos at least a little bit. Though I haven't done it before, I reckon I could put a "black box" over the offending anatomy in about ten seconds flat with my image editing software. With a bit more tinkering, I might even be able to create a "pixilated" effect or something like it. So why do they post the picture uncensored?

>>>Your argument was the same one used several years ago when a Nigerian artist depicted the Blessed Virgin Mary surrounded by elephant dung. It was argued that dung is a "sign of great respect" in Nigerian culture.

Except that that was all nonsense. During that whole controversy, a priest visited the Nigerian Embassy to the UN and asked them about it. They told him that dung is never used by Muslims or Christians in Nigeria, who consider it disgusting. Thus it would never appear on a picture of the Virgin Mary in Nigeria; in fact, there are apparently laws in that country against desecrating holy images (or something like that), so that particular image would have been illegal there.

>>>If the Pope feels to "uncomfortable" wearing his cassock-then we have the wrong man as Pope

How do you know that the Pope feels to "uncomfortable" wearing his cassock? We really don't know that and should avoid such conjecture about the Supreme Pontiff. He is our spiritual father and Christian Charity demands that we give him the benefit of the doubt.

Traditionalists make comments like that, which are so offensive to pious ears, then they wonder why so many Catholics find them disagreeable! And I say this as someone who often attends Indult Masses and prefers tradition over many modern novelties.

In Jesu et Maria,

Philip

Notice the Holy Father's right hand, the ring he is wearing is his cardinalatial (sic) ring, not the fisherman's ring!

Leigh

>>>Without promoting racism or condescension, perhaps it is time to inform those female lectors that revealing one's breasts at the Holy Mass is not acceptable in Western culture<<<

MO, your argument would be valid *if* the Mass in question were taking place in a Western country, or in a Westernized city where Western attire were the norm. However, as I recall, it was taking place out in one of the major villages of the ethnic group in question. IOW, on their turf, in their cultural context. To insist that they must adopt Western attire in that context is tantamount to saying that to come to Christ, one must become an ersatz Westerner, or that Western standards of modesty are somehow Biblically priveleged over other cultures' standards. This is an attitude that has often alienated people who otherwise would have happily converted.

Beyond covering the genitals and eliminatory openings, which is pretty much a human universal, modesty rules vary by culture. Pre-Revolutionary Chinese considered the female foot so intensely erotic that it was not to be portrayed in anything but erotic art. Other countries have decreed the elbow, or the brow, or the nape of the neck, to be similarly freighted with erotic tension, and thus not to be seen in polite society. Western culture happens to regard the female breast thusly, and while it's perfectly legitimate to expect visitors to our shores to adapt to our customs, imposing it on other peoples in their own lands and trying to claim it's somehow a universal moral rule rather than a particular cultural one is arrogance.

Patricia Gonzalez

I have to say, I find that whole TIA website ... unbelievably ... stupid. Between fussing about whether BXVI should wear a suit in private (and basing his suitablility for the Papacy on that issue alone!), or hinting at something salacious in the proximity of JPII as Fr. Wojtyla sitting next to a woman at a picnic, I think they're all absolute bonkers. IMO, many of their remarks about "Ratzinger" and "Wojtyla" are borderline libels, to say nothing of disrespectful. Indeed, as one poster noted above, they should get a life! As far as I'm concerned, the Pope is entitled to wear whatever he chooses to in private. And yes, he does look pretty sharp in a suit -- and that's a lovely photo of him with Msgr. Georg.

MO

It's a real problem, and one, I'm afraid, that the NO Mass implicitly allows.

Yes, it's a real problem. No, it's not one allowed, implicitly or explicitly, by the NO Mass.

I believe you are mistaken. The following article does a good job of showing why:

http://www.lumengentleman.com/content.asp?id=211

I would also suggest that you read Archbishop Annibale Bugnini's autobiographical account of the reform of the liturgy, entitled, ironically, The Reform of the Liturgy, 1948-1975.

He was the chief architect of the New Mass, fired by Bl. John XXIII, then inexplicably re-assigned by Pope Paul VI before being fired again. It is thought that Pope Paul VI discovered his Masonic affiliations. Regardless, Bugnini's very publically stated attitudes about the Missal of St. Pius V, what he thought of Latin, Protestants, Catholics, etc. is all a very disturbing compendium.

When we consider that the TLM came from St. Pius V and the NO came, in effect, from Bugnini (and if you doubt me, read the book), I must opt for the Missal derived from the man with the word "Saint" in front of his name.

MO

MO, my original comment was that Michelle Arnold wasn't using a strawman. Any point you wanted to make to me was lost when you presented your strawmen. (Especially about people thinking the Pope mumbling infallabilities in his sleep. That's just insulting.)

While I certainly apologize if I have offended you with my comment, I think you must recognize hyperbole when you see it.

I do not literally believe that neo-conservative Catholics jump on everything the pope says as infallible pronouncement, but there are times when such behavior runs perilously close to that knee-jerk reaction (e.g., trying to defend Quran-kissing, Assisi, changing the Rosary with "Luminous mysteries," defending Communion in the hand, and various other seedy actions which no one would try to defend were a layman to perform them).

I do not use the term "neo-conservative" with the intent to insult either.

If I had to defend that, I'd expand it as referring to a sincere group of generally orthodox Catholics who, while espousing a love for various devotions and a desire to obey the Church and Her Holy Father, seem to almost fanatically ignore or whitewash all questionable pontifical decisions or apparent (or actual) departures from Tradition.

This is well in evidence with the recent spate of attacks on this blog against so-called "radtrads."

A commentator does him or herself a disservice in lumping together all traditional Catholics with Traditio or TIA. Not everyone who loves the TLM and hates the departure from Tradition is a sedevacantist or a supporter of the SSPX.

I would point you to an article posted on this blog recently entitled "Surviving Sunday Mass" in which Ms. Arnold submits an inexplicable reference to the disobedience of "radtrads" before going on to describe how she herself went to a Novus Ordo, disliked the abuses she saw, and proceeded to disobey in the same way that those "radtrads" do on many on occasion to escape the stifling heterodoxy of a liturgically abused Mass.

MO

Cut-off

I would point you to an article posted on this very blog recently entitled "Surviving Sunday Mass" in which Ms. Arnold submits an inexplicable criticism of "radtrads" while herself describing how she attended a Novus Ordo, disliked the all too common abuses that took place (there are 100+ post threads on abused Masses over at Catholic Answers--read the article I posted and you'll see why), and proceeded to practice the same disobedience in constructing her own mini-liturgy for which she faulted those "radtrads."

Why not skip out on those abuses and attend a TLM? There are little red books in the back for learning the Latin. Give it 4-5 Sundays and you won't even need the Missal anymore. You can evade those blasphemous little Haugen/Haas hymns and listen to the venerable chant given us by St. Gregory the Great. See real reverence for the Holy Sacrament, where people approach Christ on their knees and do not communicate themselves. You'll hear prayers referring to Hell, Purgatory, the soul, the Blessed Mother, the holy saints and apostles, the Sacrifice of the Mass and the Real Presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, and sermons reiterating the same...you know, actual CATHOLIC doctrines, many of which were excised from the Novus Ordo Missal for absolutely no good reason.

Do we no longer require a reminder of the possibility of eternal damnation? Are we modern people in 2006 without the need of the Blessed Mother's intercession?

A Catholic saint promulgated that Missal. As for the New Order Mass...I do not dispute its validity, because to do so is to cast asperions on the Holy Spirit. But it was not promulgated, it would seem, by so ardent and saintly a defender of the Catholic Faith as St. Pius V.

Marco, Triumphalistic Papist

Bugnini was---pardon me while I spit on the ground---a vile reprobate and liturgical degenerate possessed of a diseased mind infected with the malignancy of freemasonry. Ecclesiastical vermin, in a word.

J.R. Stoodley

MO,

Adam and Eve were ashamed and covered themselves. It's been that way for many tens of thousands of years. Without promoting racism or condescension, perhaps it is time to inform those female lectors that revealing one's breasts at the Holy Mass is not acceptable in Western culture.

Apparently the Hebrew word used for the garments God gave Adam and Eve probably means loin cloth or skirt. They both would have been topless after the fall.

The breasts of either sex are not sexual organs. They differ between the sexes, but are no more sexual than the male beard. Whether wrongly or not they have been sexualized in Western culture and others. Because their exposure now becomes a source of temptation in Western culture they should be covered here, but in a society where this is not the case there is no reason to cover them.

Indeed, I think it terrible racism (or ethnocentrism or something) to want Western clothing to spread to the whole world, including tropical climates where it is even less practical. To suggest that the Mass is specifically Western is even worse.

MO, let me get this straight. You think the addition of the Luminous Mysteries is indefensible? I ask because until I moved to this area, I had never heard the Fatima prayer that many people add to the Rosary I was taught by my family. Should I be appalled at that innovation?

How about the Divine Mercy devotion that is gaining such a following in my parish - is that acceptable? Did one of the previous Popes declare that new Marion prayers and meditations on the life of Christ were unacceptable?

Personally, I think there are a lot of knee-jerk condemnations.

In my parish, we have prayers referring to Hell, Purgatory, the soul, the Blessed Mother, the holy saints and apostles! But they're in English, so I was afraid that it didn't count. I'm so glad you commented that the New Order Mass is valid. Oh, and guess what? My young priest also promotes Adoration and has homilies about the importance of frequent confession in order to be prepared to accept the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Evidentally he's a Roman Catholic. Go figure.

J.R. Stoodley

I do pray with many of the rest of you that there will be a liturgical restoration, and soon. Note that even Sacrosanctum Concillium talks mostly about restoration and continuity. If the abstract ideals of that document were separated from the concrete directives we could have some valuable guidance.

I agree that "radtrad" is a dangerous generalization, just like "liberal" or "neo-Catholic" since ideas associated with these do not always go with the qualities one connects with these ideas. There can be very liberal-minded traditionalists or very legalistic, fanatical liberals, for example. Still, steriotypes tend to form because there are many who fit into it.

MissJean

I forgot to add that much of the above was hyperbole. Seriously, though, I'm getting a little tired of Catholics glomming onto this saint or that theologian as somehow the end of all theology/religious expression/prayers. My older brother and I are currently trying to get my younger brother to stop fretting over the new translation - he's sceptical because he thinks "And with your spirit" is New Agey. :)

Perhaps it's because I've had to endure so many Protestant jabs at various Popes and my "unBiblical" traditions. Plus a painful discourse on why Luther (or, conversely, Calvin) were RIGHT and how if I just READ and UNDERSTOOD them, I would realize how wrongheaded I am to be a Papist.

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