Logos Libronix Lack Of Catholic Works

A reader writes:

I own a Logos Libronix (LDLS) collection of ebooks and love the many of the functions of the LDLS system especially the search functions. However there are few Catholic titles available. I know Harmony Media has a great selection of Catholic titles but I would love to be able to search the Catechism, and Papal Encyclicals, and Vatican II documents in LDLS.

Recently another Catholic user has posed the question in their newsgroups as to why there are so few Catholic titles. The response was the following:

"The Libronix Digital Library System is just that - a library system with many books by many publishers. And many of those books disagree with each other in one way or another. For comparative study this is a very good thing. It means you can compare multiple theologies and a variety of doctrinal positions. Yet for many Catholic publishers, that's where the problem lies. Most love the idea of their books being searchable in the LDLS, but when they find out that other non-Catholic books can be added to the system by users, they stop loving the idea. It's the commingling of books on Catholicm and perhaps, books on Calvinism that stops them short. For many specific reasons, they cannot and will not allow this to happen. Yet, if Logos were to build a special product that effectively put a wall around Catholic material, our Library system representing many books by many publishers would cease to be a Library system, at least in the way the LDLS is constructed. "

Are Catholic publishers not allowed to publish their books with Nihil Obstats and Imprimaturs in a system that allows the use of non-Catholic material? That seems to be the answer we are getting. But in a normal library all kinds of books are in one place, it doesn't make sense that the Church would have such a restriction.

We have no responses fro any Catholic publisher on the subject.

Do you know of any other electronic versions of Catholic titles besides Harmony?

Harmony is a leading producer of Catholic e-books, though there are other companies that have put them out. To date many of the results have not been that impressive (the USCCB, for example, put out an electronic edition of the Catechism a few years ago that was simply awful; you had to click seven different things before you could get to your first screen of Catechism text). I'm sure this is something that will be solved with time and--to a significant extent--can be done at home using online resources. IntraText also has critical editions of certain key Catholic works available online.

As far as your question about what Catholic publishers are allowed to do, nothing in canon law prevents them from allowing their works to be placed in a particular storage medium as long as it is made clear that any imprimaturs that their works carry apply only to their works and not to other works also placed in the storage medium. This is the principle, for example, by which the Vatican allows the Catechism and the Code of Canon Law and the Code of Canons for the Eastern Churches to be placed in the IntraText archive, which also contains many non-imprimatured works.

That being said, I do not know who at Logos wrote the reply that you quote or whether it would be endorsed by higher-ups at Logos. It also is not clear to me what the person means, but at first glance the person appears to be trying to blame Catholic publishers for not wanting to have their works put on CDs for Catholic publishers that also contain unlockable versions of non- or anti-Catholic works.

In the old days, Logos did not have a problem preparing special edition CDs for Catholic publishers. I know, because they did prepare a special edition CD for Catholic publishers at one time that omitted the anti-Catholic footnotes of the 38-volume Church Fathers set.

If Logos has now decided that they will no longer prepare special editions for Catholic publishers and they insist on putting unlockable non- or anti-Catholic works on CDs then that is entirely a marketing decision of the people at Logos and has nothing to do with a concept of a library.

A library can include whatever works the librarian wants, and if the librarians at Logos are insisting on putting unlockable non- or anti-Catholic works on proposed CDs for Catholic publishers then that is entirely their own choice. There is no reason in the world, assuming the economics of the deal would work, why an all-Catholic library CD cannot be produced except the choice of Logos management.

I'm also dubious of the broad-brush approach that the author of the statement applies to Catholic publishers. Catholic publishers are not monolithic, just as Protestant publishers are  not. They have different degrees of openness to non-Catholic ideas and different degrees of risk tolerance. As someone who works in Catholic publishing, I am leery of catchall statements about Catholic publishers saying that they (as a group) are not willing to do certain things.

I suspect that there are Protestant publishers who have resisted placing their works in Libronix format for the reason that they don't want their works next to works hostile to their viewpoint, and I suspect that there are Catholic publishers who would not have a problem placing their works in Libronix, even on a CD containing non- or anti-Catholic works. The statement that you quote thus strikes me as taking a broadbrush approach that attempts to place blame on Catholic publishers, which is not good PR to my mind.

Knowing that a company is likely to make such statements as part of its public relations efforts is also the kind of thing that would make Catholic publishers leery of doing business with Logos. One could easily have said, "You know, we've talked to a number of Catholic publishers, but thus far we haven't been able to put together any (or very many) deals, although we'd love to. If you'd like to see your favorite Catholic works available in Libronix format, contact the publishers and let them know that there's a demand for this."

Trying to make it sound as if Catholic publishers are overcautious (or even paranoid) and thus to blame for not making their works available in this format is not the kind of thing likely to encourage them to make them available in this format.

This is the information age, and sooner or later a large number of Catholic works will be available in electronic format. Whether Logos wants its Libronix format to be the one that wins out in that regard is something that is principally Logos' responsibility.

I'm also glad that you have had a good experience with Logos Libronix. Personally, I have had a bad experience with it. The Logos system was good when it was in the 1.6 version but when they made the jump to 2.0 they (in my opinion) overbuilt the thing so that it became so musclebound it was simply easier to use Google or CTRL-F to search html documents. Libronix, when it came out, crashed my system and I haven't been able to use it, so they may have solved some of the overbuilt interface problems from version 2.0. Perhaps at some future point I'll try it again and discover that the problems have been solved (something that would please me very much).

Hope this helps!

Comments

[jpy15026]

I use Logos/Libronix and it’s a good "Bible" program. But that’s all it is! I bought the "Catholic Collection" to get the NAB, Jerusalem, Vulgate Bibles and Jeromes, and use it for comparison “Bible” research but not much else.
I needed something for Catholic research so I tried Harmony Media "Welcome to the Catholic Church" v 4.0 and it just blew me away. This is a completely new version. The "old" v 3 was based on the original windows picture viewer, this one is not, so it is awesome! What makes it so awesome is the material contained in the program.
This is the answer to the Catholic problem of not having a good Catholic software program available to us. This one has it all…Just to list a few:

• New American Bible
• RSV Bible: Catholic Edition
• Encyclopedic Dictionary of Biblical Terms
• Theology of the Body
• Maps, Music, and 1500 Illustrations
• Catena Aurea
• All Vatican II Documents
• Hundreds of modern church documents
• All John Paul II documents (1978-2005)
• Sources of Catholic Dogma (Denzinger)
• Church Documents: Nicea - Vatican 1
• Code of Canon Law
• The Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Edition)
• The Roman Catechism
• The Catholic Catechism (Hardon)
• Summa Theologica (by St. Thomas Aquinas)
• Ecclesiology: The Church of God (Bouyer)
• Listings for all United States Dioceses
• Homilies of Pope John Paul I I (1978-2005)
• Cycle of Readings (updated to new Lectionary)
• Sacraments and their Celebration
• Catholic Prayers
• Lives of the Saints (3 Volumes) (NOT Butlers)
• Church History (2 Volumes)
• Some Early Christian Fathers

Download and Info:

http://www.harmonymedia.com/cdrom/welcome/welcome.htm

This is a totally new format unlike the "old" v.3.0., its very user friendly, and so easy to navigate, very nice, it’s really a blessing to have all these Catholic resources available in this one fantastic program.

If you are unable to download the files you may request a physical disc by sending your name and address information along with your phone number to Harmony Media at [email protected] or leave message at 888-427-6334

[DJ]

OK, this is only sort of related to the blog post, but your talking about the Catechism brought something to mind for me.

Is there anywhere available the complete text of the Catechism that one can grab? I'm not talking about the versions on the USCCB or Vatican web sites where you have to click around to get to the text (probably in a similar fashion that Jimmy was talking about with this e-text software.) I'm interested in a simple plain text copy. Nothing more or less. Its for a programming project that I've been thinking of taking up (involving the Catechism, a text or two of the bible and some older church documents such as council texts and encyclicals.)

Don't know, it may never really take off, but I'd still like to get my hands on an electronic copy of the CCC.

CCC:

http://www.memorare.com/catechism/

[DJ]

Heh, the program says it can set itself up as a TSR. Sweet. While that's a cool (and useful) little program, I'm looking for the actual text itself. As in a word doc, ASCII text, or even RTF. The memorare link has other works in those formats and that's what I'm looking at for the recent catechism. Maybe I should just send off an e-mail to those guys to see if they have it or not.

[Vincent]

Hi, Jimmy. I recognize you're coming late to the discussion, but I think this post misrepresents Logos's policies and practices.

1) Logos does work with Catholic publishers. We just signed a contract with Pontifical Bible Institute to produce several titles. We have worked with Liturgical Press in the past and hope to work with them more in the future. There are a few other publishers we’ve worked with.

So please don't read Bill's comments as an attempt to make a blanket statement about all Catholic publishers, or as a comment on Canon Law or any other such thing. These are, however, real obstacles we've encountered with particular Catholic publishers.

2) It isn't just about what books people can choose to buy. A perhaps bigger deal is all the little supporting files that are installed by default. For example, even if you never purchase a copy of Calvin's Institutes, there is a data type file for the Institutes (used for navigating, linking and searching) that is installed by default. The solution isn't as simple as just not installing the file, because the moment a user ran 'Libronix Update' to get the latest updates downloaded, they would be offered a data type for Calvin's Institutes. We'd have to maintain a completely separate set of Libronix Update code for Catholic users to prevent that sort of thing from happening, and then come up with a solution for Catholic users who WANT to buy non-Catholic books as well. (Not to mention, deciding how to handle Catholic books that cite the Institutes for reference, thus requiring the data type.)

This is what Bill meant when he said that we're not 'building a fence' around these Catholic products. We're not going to make it more difficult for anyone to get the supporting files needed to make the software run well. Sure, we are responsible for that policy; we don’t ‘blame’ publishers for it. From our perspective, building that fence would be basically spending a lot of development money in order to provide BAD service to our customers. I hope that these aren't permanent barriers.

3) We have no new policy about not making 'Catholic Editions' of works where we would be allowed to do so. But to my knowledge, ECF was the only time we've ever been asked for one. I would posit that very few books lend themselves well to being automatically converted into theologically neutral books. With ECF, identifying the footnotes filled with theological comments could be done programmatically. If we had to do that kind of editing by hand, reading all the footnotes, across 37 volumes, we probably would not do it. Not because we're jerks and are anti-Catholic, but because it would be prohibitively expensive.

We absolutely want to work with Catholic publishers, and I hope no one goes away from these discussions thinking Logos is hostile to that.

As a side note, we've come a long ways since version 2.0. We'll be releasing version 3.0a in a matter of weeks, which represents three development cycles from 2.0. I hope you check it out!

[Philip R. Gons]

Great post, Vincent. Thanks for clearing this up!

[Gilbert]

Is there anywhere available the complete text of the Catechism that one can grab?

check out this site

http://web.mac.com/frjps/iWeb/Mobile%20Gabriel/Downloads.html

[Brent Brown]

Long ago, Logos had a product called the "Catholic Scholars Pack." While it was a bit on the pricey side, it has been a great tool for me over the years. It's sad that they (as far as I can tell) no longer offer it.

[Jake]

I have been surprised that Logos makes available to purchase so few of the classic catholic theologians of the medieval period. Many of their works are avilable in English translations that are now out of copyright. In addition, I presume, the Migne texts would be available for Logos to use if they wished (for those who wanted to work with the latin).

Just a thought...

[DJ]

Thanks Gilbert. I've been looking for that type of thing for quite a while. I'm going to be very embarrassed if you tell me you were able to Google for it.

Now I have to get my lazy butt into gear and actually do some coding...

[Steve]

The new Libronix library system reads the old "Logos Catholic" collestions.
Does anyone know where I can purchase an old Logos catholic collection?
Maybe someone who does not use the old Logos system because of the Harmony system and would be willing to part with their old Logos collection?
Blessings to all...

[bob]

Just to clarify...a search of Logos' site using "Catholic" has turned up 81 products.

Here are a sampling of the titles:

Collegeville Catholic Reference Library:

Oxford Movement Historical Theology Collection (10 volumes):

Early Church Fathers Special Catholic Edition:


Catholic Principles for Interpreting Scripture:

Reading the New Testament Commentary (12 volumes):

Trinitarian Theology Collection

Mary for All Christians:


As I said...there are 76 more as of today....