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July 18, 2006

Comments

Tim M

I think that Pat Buchanan has written a poignant article on this situation.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51116

Jason

A friend of mine is currently visiting family in Lebanon. He's an American citizen, and says the Israelis are good about moving civilians out. He's fortunate to be in a Christian area, so they won't be bombed much. But apparantly the US government is making American citizens sign a contract that they will repay any evacuation charges. All the taxes we pay, and we have to put up with stuff like that?

http://lebaneselobby.org/News__index/news%202006/07%2018%2006%20Americans%20can't%20board%20a%20ship%20unless%20they've%20signed%20a%20contract%20agreeing%20to%20repay%20the%20US%20government.html

Alois

I'd have to agree wholeheartedly with Pat Buchanan.

Shane

I do not wholeheartedly agree with Pat Buchanen. His article presents a rather uninformed view of the situation, in my opinion. I believe that a person would have to be pretty blind to fail to see that Syria and Iran are behind the situation.

Michael

What is going on in the Middle East? An attempt to stir things up enough to draw America into a larger conflict against Iran and Syria. The propoganda war stalled with all the recent failures in Iraq.

have a bomber circle real low around the Kaaba. Keep circling. Give the Middle East 3 months to get it self straightened out. I think things would get in line pretty quick.

And, make sure everyone knows you arent bluffing...

Karen

American Papist is worth at least skimming daily.

Ed Peters

PB always makes me think.

Michael

have a bomber circle real low around the Kaaba. Keep circling. Give the Middle East 3 months to get it self straightened out. I think things would get in line pretty quick.

WWJB - Who would Jesus bomb?

Jason

Sodom and Gommorah

Trad

RULE 3 VIOLATION.

Paul H

Apparently "Trad" isn't familiar with Rule 3. :-(

MrEko

Sorry, Trad, but I don't think anyone will do more than skim your post.

John

I get it.

Hezbollah kidnaps two soldiers (is it a war or isn't it)(and Israel seems to kidnap people all the time) SO....
Israel responds by bombing the heck out all of Lebanon including killing children, civilians, bombing airports, water ducts etc
and kills 200 people
THAT IS PROPORTIONALITY?
NOW, this is not because the Lebanese government did this, or Lebanese Christians (who are also being killed) BUT so they get mad at Hezbollah and kick out Hezbollah and guard the border that they have problems with because of Israel after Israel left

sky

My goodness! It seems it's always the kooks that post miles of idiocies in the comment boxes!

Nick

What is kooky about it? Engage the argument and not just use ad hominem logical fallacy(ies) to deny truth and reality?

Michel

I read the long post, it makes a lot of sense. You should all read it.
There are other good articles on
www.fisheaters.com
check out the part on
Catholic/Jewish relations
and
Judaizing of Catholicism
and history

Alois

"What is kooky about it? Engage the argument and not just use ad hominem logical fallacy(ies) to deny truth and reality?"

Nick is obviously a whacko who is out of his mind. j/k ; )

BillyHW

I say we exchange Pat Buchanan for the two Israeli soldiers.

:)

Jason

The plot thickens...

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's Hizbollah, which claims links to the Lebanese group of the same name, said on Tuesday it stood ready to attack Israeli and U.S. interests worldwide.

"We have 2,000 volunteers who have registered since last year," said Iranian Hizbollah's spokesman Mojtaba Bigdeli, speaking by telephone from the central seminary city of Qom.

"They have been trained and they can become fully armed. We are ready to dispatch them to every corner of the world to jeopardise Israel and America's interests. We are only waiting for the Supreme Leader's green light to take action. If America wants to ignite World War Three ... we welcome it," he said.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2006-07-18T180844Z_01_OLI848020_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-IRAN-HIZBOLLAH.xml&src=rss&

Honora

I'm waiting for Mr. Friend of Israel, once again the only holdout against sanity, to offer himself as a human shield to escort Americans safely out of Lebanon.

Chris

Israel did what the international community told them to do - pull out of Gaza, pull out of Lebanon. The international community promised peace if they did this. There was a little peace for a little while. But, radical Islam looks upon this type of "peace" as a sign of weakness, and it emboldens them. So while the peace-at-any-price crew, the appeasers, the Neville Chamberlains of the modern world, tell Israel to exercise restraint, the Jewish people continue to have the words "never again" imprinted on their consciousness.

Shane

Israel is responding propotionally - to everything that has happened to them for the last several decades. They are sick of being unable to go about their daily lives without the fear of being blown to pieces picking their children up from school or going to the restaraunt for dinner.

Also, I agree with Chris. Anyone who has taken a look through history will see that virtually every time a group decided to appease another or to give in to the demands of the other, that was not the end of it and it just ended up worse. In fact, that's the case of what happened practically in every conflict between Catholics and Protestants following the reformation. The Protestants would attack, the Catholics would finally concede, then the Protestants would attack again and demand more.

Maronite

How is it proportional for CHRISTIANS (Maronites, Latin Rite ROMAN Catholics, Melkites, Armenians, Assyrians, Greek (Arabic/Antiochien) Orthodox to be BOMBED, children DIE, have to leave their country and have their lives destroyed because SOME Lebanese in government do not want to or cannot attack or control Hezbollah??????????
Did these Christians kidnap these soldiers?
Did these Christians allow Hezbollah to operate??
Why again is Israel bombing Christian neighborhoods??????

Lou

Bush is disgusting in charging US CITIZENS to get out safely in a situation that Bush is doing nothing to help.
Ronald Reagan threatened to bomb the Israeli Army in Lebanon when they got out of hand and wanted to slaughter the PLO leadership.
The Israeli government had a policy of supporting HAMAS by funding and playing Machivellean games and their governing councils. Sheik Yassin was helped by the Israeli government because they wanted to destabilize the secular, communist influnced, and Christian influenced PLO and Yasser Arafat, the anti PLO (Fatah) and Arafat policies helped the Islamic fundamentalists which created the current problem

That makes sense Israel should kill US and international citizens to force Lebanon to get Hezbollah under control.
Our US citizens should die and be in a dangerous country and be forced to sign papers to reimburse our government for saving us in addition to our taxes, maybe we should spend our tax dollars on a North African school only for Jews or something--oh we did do that.
Bush is clueless.

gelsbern

You get charged for an ambulance ride, you get charged by the fire department, why is it disgusting and wrong for these Americans who placed themselves in a dangerous area to be charged for their evacuation. The U.S. did not put them there, if they don't want to pay, then they can stay.

Shane

It's probably wrong to get charged for an ambulance ride. That being said, so long as that is the moral standard of society, I agree that there is no reason why being charged for evacuation from Lebanon ought to be deemed disgusting and immoral.

Brian

This morning I read that Israel bombed a Lebanese military base south of Beiruit, killing eleven soldiers, and have thus far refused to give a reason for this attack.

So much for their bombing "principally highways used by Hezbollah".

The Israeli attack is using vastly excessive force, and Mr. Bush should recognise this and do something about it.

Michael

Of course if Israel truly wants Hezbollah suppressed in southern Lebanon, attacking the infrastructure and forces of the pro-western Lebanonize government seems the wrong way to go about it. If on the other hand, the IDF are acting as agents of chaos their actions may appear brilliant.

Jason

You get charged for an ambulance ride, you get charged by the fire department, why is it disgusting and wrong for these Americans who placed themselves in a dangerous area to be charged for their evacuation.

Should we charge the victims of 9/11 for the costs of that day? After all, they didn't have to go to work.

Lebanon wasn't dangerous for the last couple of years until recently, people who are US Citizens have family there, SSPX sent priests there, Opus Dei is there--maybe we should martyr them all
There are Armenian CATHOLIC and Assyrian CATHOLIC seminaries in the Shouf mountains

WHY ARE THEY BOMBING CHRISTIAN VILLAGES AND NEIGHBORHOODS IN BEIRUT IF THEY ARE TRYING TO GET HEZBOLLAH?
WHY ARE CIVILIANS AND CHILDREN BEING KILLED?

Maybe we should charge Israel for all the help we give them if we charge for ambulance rides.
Maybe Israel should pay to evacuate our civilians.

If Al Queda attacked us maybe we should bomb Arab and Muslim women and children so they can get mad and make sure their governments stop Al Queda--is that the logic?

We need to stop Israel now in their demonic rage just like Reagan did in 82.

Delance

Isreal is attacking people that are not behind the Hezbolah. Their attacks are making innocent civilians suffer. That includes MAROTINE CATHOLICS. I wonder if the support of american catholics for Israel will go as far as to justify bombing little christians villages and killing children that has nothing to do with terrorism. Or to make they go sick without wather, eletricity and medicine. That's immoral.

Dan E.

Why all the hatred toward Israel? Why is everyone so quick to jump on the victim here? Remember that Israel has been fighting its own War on Terror for 58 years now, and it will continue to fight as long as the Muslims continue to pursue their stated goal of eradicating the tiny state from the face of the earth. Lebanon is a staging ground for Hezbollah, who with the help of Syria and Iran, continue to attack Israel. And you call for Israel to restrain itself? Stop your rhetorical attacks on Israel for a few minutes to contemplate what the Holy Land would look like under the rule of the "radical" Muslims. What would become of those sites so holy to us Christians?

Michael

Why is everyone so quick to jump on the victim here?

How many innocent people can you slaughter and still lay claim to the title of victim?

Delance

"Why all the hatred toward Israel?"

Why all the hatred towards innocent christian being bombed on Lebanon?

"Why is everyone so quick to jump on the victim here?"

The innocent christians being bombed in Lebanon are what, terrorists? Or victims?

bill912

It seems that Hezbollah is intentionally attacking civilian targets and that Israel is intentionally attacking military targets.

Andrew

I think we need to keep things in perspective. Being Catholic does not mean that we are neo-conservative, nor do we have to be pro-Israel!

In any case, if Israel is really bombing Lebanon AND Hezbollah, then what are the reasons behind it? Think about it. Why would they bomb the innocents? It doesn't seem like a good way to make friends with the pro-West democratic Lebanonese...

Alois

Well, Dan, I can't speak for everyone else, but I certainly don't hate Israel. I do think, however, that the past and current conflicts are the fruit of a failed social engineering project by the west. Israel is a religious state founded for the purpose of giving jews from around the world a homeland. That's fine. The only problem is that it displaced people who's families have lived there for generations, all based upon their ethnicity/religion. This includes muslims and Christians. It's analogous, in many ways, to what happened in Northern Ireland. And while I unabashedly condemn the violence being hurled at Israel, I can still understand the reasons behind it.

Dan E.

Very well, Michael, Delance, et al. What would you have Israel do? If you believe that Israel is truly targeting Lebanese Christian civilians (a point which I will not concede), what would your solution be to this current crisis? The targeting of civilians is by definition the tactic of the terrorist, and has long been the strategy of those who would destroy Israel (and the US, need I remind you). So what should Israel do to keep the Muslims from attacking it?

MrEko

The newly-formed Lebanese government can't do anything to stop Hezbollah because Hezbollah is supported by Syria, the country that, until recently, had complete control of Lebanon. Israel is blaming the lebanese for Hezbollah's existence and is attacking Lebanon, when they would do much better to focus on Syria, the supporter of Hezbollah and Israel's true enemy.

Shane

I think that there is a great lack of understanding here. Hizbollah does not have headquarters, or bases, or barracks, or anything like that. It has memebers dispersed throughout Lebanon living in average neighborhoods, with ad hoc bases set up in average neighborhoods. Israel is bombing these places because that is where Hizbollah is. In fact, Israel is even warning citizens beforehand to get out of certain areas before they bomb them.

Delance

"What would you have Israel do?"

Do you think they have the right to kill innocent catholics at will? That is the relevant question.

"If you believe that Israel is truly targeting Lebanese Christian civilians"

Let’s put this into perspective. I just saw on the news that 5 brazilians have already died on the Israeli bombings. Presumably, they are maronite Catholics. Four of them were on vacation, and a 62-year old owner of a furniture factory on Lebanon. Are they terrorists?

I see on the TV the interview of a guy who has a six-month old pregnant wife on Beirute. Is she a terrorist? Is the unborn a terrorist? Can Israel kill them, if that would help the war on terror? So they have carte blanche to muder civilians at will for as long as it might have a negative effect on the terrorists?

Delance

Israel should target terrorists. They are killing way too much civilians. The IDF is not a bunch of incompetent idiots, if they are killing civilians, they are targeting civilians.

bill912

"...they are targeting civilians." The key word is "targeting". Do you have evidence to support that statement?

Brother Cadfael

The greater weight of the evidence would seem to suggest that they are targeting terrorists who have deliberately chosen to use civilians as human shields.

Should we charge the victims of 9/11 for the costs of that day? After all, they didn't have to go to work.

No, those people didn't run off to a dangerous place to live to go get a degree in probably the only school that would accept them. Those people were home and the Federal Government that is constant worrying about unconstitutional pokebelly programs (EPA/Medicare/Department of Education) forgot and failed at their primary constitutional duties, and that is the protection of its citizens.

The people who are being evactuated now, would have left eventually at their own expense, this crisis simply moved up the time frame. In other words, they were going to pay for it anyhow, so why should the fact that they find themselves in a situation such as this change that fact?

Jason

The fact that it is a crisis involving American citizens. We pay taxes for everything under the sun, but we can't shell out a few hundred dollars to rescue American citizens from a war torn country? The government has no problem taking our money to rebuild Iraq. Maybe it can sell a few of its nuclear weapons, and then it'll have enough money to ferry American citizens out of Lebanon.

Jason

By the way, are Americans not allowed to travel abroad now? Every country is "dangerous". You can't live your life on a theoretical danger.

Honora

Terrorism is terrorism. It feels the same no matter whom it lands on.

Pete

Israeli may or may not be targetting civilians. The evidence is that civilains not associated with terrorism are being killed.
Israel certainly does not care.

To force a government, or people in a nation to force a government, to stop Hezbollah by bombing a relatively (current) peaceful nation including water supply, airports, Christian neighborhoods (certainly not Palestinian or Hezbollah)does not seem moral nor effective.

Hezbollah may or may not be hiding among civilians but again the bombing of regular Lebanese Army bases, airports etc. is causing chaos. Children have died. Civilians have died. International people have died.

WHAT ABOUT CHRISTIAN SUFFERING????????????
Only Jewish victims of terrorism get to destroy everyone remotely associated with the terrorism.

ISRAEL SHOULD RESTRAIN ITSELF

bill912

That civilians are being killed is a statement that is true of every war ever fought. It is hardly unique to World War III.

"Israel certainly does not care." Others might say that the Israelis have shown great restraint.

"...bombing...water supply, airports..." Attacking the infrastructure is a way of hindering the enemy, to make him less dangerous.

"...bombing...Christian neighborhoods (certainly not Palestinian or Hezbollah)..." Certainly?

"Hezbollah may or may not be hiding among civilians..." Do you really have any doubt about that? That's what cowards do.

"Hezbollah may or may not be hiding among civilians..."

Wrong. Hezbollah is definitely - beyond dispute - hiding among civilians.

Charboul

That civilians are being killed is a statement that is true of every war ever fought. It is hardly unique to World War III.

SO IS THIS A WAR??????
ISRAEL WANTS TO HAVE IT BOTH WAY, IT CAN FIGHT TERRORISM WITH EXTRAORDINARY MEASURES BUT IF ANYONE FIGHTS BACK IT IS NOT WAR AND IT IS IMMORAL

"Israel certainly does not care." Others might say that the Israelis have shown great restraint

WHAT RESTRAINT????? LEBANON IS BEING DEVASTATED.
WOMEN AND CHILDREN ARE DYING. PEOPLE ARE LEAVING THE COUNTRY WHO WERE INVOLVED IN BUSINESS FROM FRANCE, CANADA, BRAZIL, SWEDEN ETC.

"...bombing...water supply, airports..." Attacking the infrastructure is a way of hindering the enemy, to make him less dangerous.
LEBANON IS THE ENEMY????
CHRISTIANS ARE THE ENEMY???
CHILDREN ARE THE ENEMY????
BRAZILIANS AND AMERICANS ARE THE ENEMY???
THEY ARE DESTROYING A COUNTRY AND MAKING IT MORE DANGEROUS AND HURTING INNOCENTS

"...bombing...Christian neighborhoods (certainly not Palestinian or Hezbollah)..." Certainly?
MOST CHRISTIANS DO NOT LIKE PALESTINIANS IN THEIR COUNTRY, MANY FOUGHT HEZBOLLAH,
HEZBOLLAH ACTUALLY HAD A LOT OF RESTRAINT IN NOT MAKING ON REPRISALS OF THE CHRISTIAN MILITIAS USED BY THE ISRAELIS WHO WERE NOT LET IN ISRAEL
ISRAEL IS USED TO PROXYS LIKE DRUZE, BEDOUIN, NOT ALL ISRAELI JEWS AND THEY ARE FRONT LINES
SO WERE THE CHRISTIAN MILITIAS A HUMAN BUFFER
CHRISTIAN NEIGHBORHOODS ARE PRO-CHRISTIAN USED TO BE SOMEWHAT PRO-US AND PRO-ISRAEL

Hezbollah may or may not be hiding among civilians..." Do you really have any doubt about that? That's what cowards do.
HEZBOLLAH IS HIDING BUT NOT AT THE AIRPORT, NOT IN BEIRUT PRIMARILY, NOT IN CHRISTIAN NEIGHBORHOODS, NOT IN REGULAR LEBANESE ARMY BASES, NOT IN PREGNANT WOMEN AND CHILDREN, NOT IN BRAZILIANS, THIS IS NOT A CASE OF INSURGENTS HIDING IN A MOSQUE

ISRAEL NEEDS TO STOP BOMBING IMMEDIATELY
WITHOUT ANYTHING ELSE
THEY NEED TO STOP THIS INVASION
IT IS ILLEGAL AND IMMORAL

bill912

There's no need to shout.

There is a need to shout when you have relatives dying who are not terrorists and are not by Hezbollah. THEY ARE CHRISTIANS. CATHOLICS AT THAT. (Not Roman though) INNOCENT.
Israel is not warning civilians. Food is getting scarce. Water is getting scarce and not pure. Nobody is working. Commerce is affected.
WHY NOT BE LOYAL TO CATHOLICS AND NOT JUST ISRAEL.
Jews and Muslims stick together, we are letting our Middle Eastern Christians being led to the slaughter by bad American policy

Talmud Scholar

RULE 3 VIOLATION

French perspective?

As French President Jacques Chirac said, the Israeli reaction seems dangerously out-of-proportion to the provocation. A few soldiers killed and captured and they are ready to "set Lebanon's clock back 20 years" risking a regional or even a global conflagration.

The cruelty and severity of Israel's response are totally unjustified and suggests to me that a bigger scenario is in the works. This is confirmed by the tepid international efforts to initiate a cease fire. I am not sure whether Iran or Israel will emerge as the big loser. But I suspect every move is orchestrated in advance.

Joseph Ehrlich ("Senderburl") thinks the NWO is playing a double game with Israel, and that Haifa and Tel Aviv are going to be nuked by Iran. He believes Sharon refused to play according to this script and was removed, but the traitor Ehud Olmert will. He believes Israel has outlived its usefulness to the globalists, and they want control of Jerusalem and a new relationship with the Muslim world. He doesn't think this will be an excuse to nuke Iran, which he says has immunity by virtue of its oil wealth.

Ehrlich's scenario is as horrific as it is farfetched but it is consistent with reports that the Illuminati hate Israel. Erhlich says the trigger is an attack on Syria by Israel.

In any case, the new Israeli "unilateralism" assumes opponents have no right to resist, have no legitimate grievances and are "terrorists." This is based on the canard that Israel has no one to negotiate with, which is nonsense. It is the attitude of an aggressor who has no intention of negotiating and relies entirely on force and intimidation. (Btw, the "terrorists" are the ones without the air force.)

The Israeli government seems to suspend the law of cause-and-effect. It ignores the connection between the Hizballah attack in the North and Israel's overreaction to the capture of a soldier in Gaza. The Israelis shut off water and electricity in Gaza, imprisoned Hamas government members and missile-attacked government buildings killing civilians.

The Gaza capture in turn was a response to the killing of a family picnicking on a Gaza beach, and the continued targeting of Hamas leaders.

The Israeli unilateralist approach won’t lead to a solution. It will only increase worldwide animosity against Israel and her allies.

The Israeli government must recognize Palestinian grievances, accept a cease-fire and negotiate generously. This is the only way to quell the recent escalation and ensure permanent peace.

Many Israelis agree with me and feel as helpless about their government's war policies as we do about ours. Polls suggest about one-third of Israelis are opposed to this action.

Israelis may soon learn how dangerous this overreaction really is.

Jerusalem Post

A report in the Jerusalem Post today proves very revealing. It claims that, ‘Only weeks ago, an entire reserve division was drafted in order to train for an operation such as the one the IDF is planning in response to Wednesday morning's Hizbollah attacks on IDF forces along the northern border.’[1]

The news is revealing because it was only a little over two weeks ago that Cpl. Gilad Shalit was captured by Palestinian fighters. One needs to ask how the Israelis knew at, or even before, he was captured that it would be taking action against Hizbollah in Lebanon.
This revealing piece of news comes on top of an earlier revelation that the Israelis had planned the arrest of top Palestinian Hamas leaders some time well before Shalit was captured as Ha’aretz reported: “The detention of Hamas parliamentarians in the early hours of Thursday morning had been planned several weeks ago and received approval from Mazuz on Wednesday. The same day, Shin Bet Director Yuval Diskin presented Prime Minister Ehud Olmert with the list of Hamas officials slated for detention.” [2]

This entire crisis has all the hallmarks and is beginning to unravel as a carefully orchestrated ploy to create a casus belli for Israel to attack and occupy the Gaza, neutralise Hamas, the democratically elected government of the Palestinians to deprive the Palestinians of any power to resist reoccupation of the Gaza, possibly on a permanent basis, and, at the same time, to neutralise Hizbollah in pursuit of regime change in Lebanon.

Since the Israelis are now also making noises about Syrian and even Iranian involvement in the Hizbollah actions against Israel that has prompted Israel’s attacks against Lebanon, there are indications that these noises are intended to foment US involvement in attacking Syria and Iran on Israels behalf.

If, indeed, this crisis has been orchestrated to deliberately provoke two Arab organisations to the north and south of Israel to attack Israel in an attempt to gain US involvement then the Israelis are playing an extremely dangerous game… unless, of course, the Israelis have already colluded with the US.


ENDNOTES

[1] Yaakov Katz, ‘Reservists called up for Lebanon strike’, Jerusalem Post, 12 July 2006. Available online: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885978380&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull Accessed 13 July 2006.
[2] Avi Issacharoff and Amos Harel, ‘AG refuses to OK use of Hamas officials as ‘bargaining chip’’, Ha’aretz, 30 June 2006. Available online: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/732528.html Accessed 13 July 2006.

Gilad

RULE 3 VIOLATION

KILLING CIVILIANS TARGETTED?  RESTRAINT?

RULE 3 VIOLATION

Conspiracy

RULE 3 VIOLATION

W's proof

Already, Bush is ranting about Syria being behind the Hezbollah capture of the Israeli soldiers. But where is the proof?


Quote:
In the desert of Iraq, right next to those "WMDs."

300 DEAD, 1000 Wounded, HALF A MILLION DISPLACED = 2 Jewish soldiers and "peace of mind" for Jews

RULE 3 VIOLATION

bill912

"In the desert of Iraq, right next to those 'WMDs'." You mean those 500 chemical weapons that were found a couple of weeks ago?

Paul Danish

* I wouldn't attach too much weight to the Jerusalem Post exit strategy stories. * First, I haven't seen similar stories anywhere else. That suggests they have a single source who may or my not reflect the thinking of the government. * Second, the pattern of Israel's air campaign -- and shelling -- suggests a much broader goal than a quick in and out. I think the facts on the ground speak louder than the anonymous source. * Third, most of the Sunni part of the Arab world seems just fine with the idea of Israel taking out Hezbollah -- out of fear of Iran and a resurgent Shia. That is the sort of opportunity that the Israelis aren't likely to waste. * Fourth, the Bush Administration is practically insouciant about the fighting. It obviously has zero interest in pulling Nasrallah out of the wringer, not to mention Assad. And it has a compelling interest in seeing both dead. Again, that presents Israel with an opportunity that it isn't likely to waste. * Fifth, if you view the current situation as one front in a broader war between Iran and what is wryly referred to as the Civilized World, taking out Hezbollah can be viewed as the most obvious place to start rolling them back. * Sixth, the fact that Israel is asking its civilian population to suck it up and endure rocket attacks suggests it has it's eye on a larger prize than just slapping Hezbollah around a bit. * Seventh, any outcome short of breaking Hezbollah's back will be read in the region as a Hezbollah victory -- and that is intolerable for Israel, the Sunnis, and the old Great Satan.

Paul Danish

bill912

The conspiracists sure seem to be committing a lot of Rule 3 Violations. But I still haven't seen them show us any evidence that a duplicate key to the Ward Room ice box did exist.

Veritas

Bill is a real uninformed fool. He routinely posts things and asks for evidence and when he gets them he attacks the poster. He lacks any knowledge or logic.

Too many neocon Catholics have been duped in this Middle East Bush dirty work for oil money and Zionism.

Nostradamus

RULE 3 VIOLATION

bill912

Veritas: LOL! Thank you for such an intellectual post!

Jimmy Akin

Just a note to folks who have been committing Rule 3 violations by posting large amounts of copied text in this thread: Stop it.

If you want to cite evidence or perspectives at greater length than a forum allows, that is why God created hyperlinks.

This is a forum for reasoned discussion. Tell people what you're pointing them to and then offer a hyperlink.

Thankyew.

Dan E.

"The Israeli government must recognize Palestinian grievances, accept a cease-fire and negotiate generously. This is the only way to quell the recent escalation and ensure permanent peace."

Finally, someone (French perspective? - seriously, that is the poster's name) gave what he believes should be Israel's next step. Of course there is no way this would work since we know that Hamas has no intention of living peacefully side by side with Israel. Nor does Hizbollah, Syria, Al-Qa'eda, Palestine, etc. Israel could declare a permanent ceasefire and unilaterally disarm, and the Muslims would wipe it out the very next day. Could some other Israel-hating reader please propose a real workable solution besides "Israel is killing Christians! Israel is killing babies! Israel is breaking into homes and stealing 'Alias' Season 1 DVDs!"? How about a real solution and a little less ranting?
Bill912 - Clear, concise and to the point, as usual. Brilliant.

bill912

Thanx, Dan E. Ditto to you. Heard a pithy comment from Bill O'Reilly: If tomorrow the terrorists lay down their weapons, there would be peace in the Middle East tomorrow; if tomorrow the Israelis threw all their weapons into the Mediterranean, there would be another Holocaust.

MrEko

W's proof,

Bush didn't say syria was behind the capture of Israeli soldiers, he said that syria, as the supporter of Hezbollah, has the power to tell them to end their aggression against Israel.

Mossad

Israel helped create Hamas. Israel funded Hamas to destablize the PLO and negatively affect the popularity of Yasser Arafat.

A real solution in Lebanon is for Israel to unilaterally stop bombing Lebanon and killing civilians.

The posts with links and text are very good. Bill and Dan are definitely not from a Catholic perspective.

Jason

Thanx, Dan E. Ditto to you. Heard a pithy comment from Bill O'Reilly: If tomorrow the terrorists lay down their weapons, there would be peace in the Middle East tomorrow; if tomorrow the Israelis threw all their weapons into the Mediterranean, there would be another Holocaust.

I was struck by that comment as well. I'm not keen on this decision by Israel, but when put in that context, I can really understand it. That doesn't necessarily justify war, but that must be pretty scary to know your neighbors want to exterminate you from the face of the earth.

Tim J.

"A real solution in Lebanon is for Israel to unilaterally stop bombing Lebanon and killing civilians..."

And then Hezbollah will stop firing rockets into Israel and everyone will have a party, right?

As someone else asked, just what WOULD you allow Israel to do in it's own defense?

Edward

Not to defend Muslims, as I am a fan of Don Juan of Austria, the bastard son of the Emporer, and I pray to Our Lady of Lepanto
BUT....Jews lived in relative peace and tolerance in Muslim lands for 1400 or so years including high positions in Ottoman society, Khazar Mongol Jews the ancestors of most Ashkenazis, Maimonodes was the physician to the Muslim potenate in Spain etc.
The idea that Muslims inherently want to exterminate Jews from the earth is not true.
They have had 1400 years to do it and some historians argue (I do not agree and it is more nuanced than that) Islam at least in certain time periods was more tolerant to Jews than the Christian West was. The Sephardic Jews (at least some)Ladinos are the descendants (some) of those who left Spain. There are many wealthy Jews in Turkey and before the Ayatollah Khomeni, there were many wealthy Jews in Iran.
Now, yes, do many Arabs not like Israel but without getting into that whole debate
Even Israeli military historians admit that they FORCED 900,000 Palestinians (not all Muslim either) from their homes and made them displaced persons, now all the arguments that it was war and to the victors belong the spoils (which can justify anything and is surprising in posts of people subscribing to Catholic Theology, Aquinas just war, and Natural Law doctrines rather than a positivist law system)and the arguments that the Arab nations should of absorbed those refugees
So, this is not a war about Jews per se but a specific piece of land and how the Jewish homeland (Harry Truman did not like Jews and thought they were self centered and selfish towards suffering of others specifically other Eastern Europeans who suffered at the hands of Nazis or communists but he under great protest from people close to him and FDR--including FDRs Secretary of State recognized Israel in 1948)--this is not an ancient probelm but a rather modern one

Israelis pioneered modern terrorism including airline hijacking NOT Palestinians or Muslims (unless you want to date it back to the Nasaranees/Ishmaelis--who allied themselves with Crusaders against Salahadin and the "orthodox" Muslim rulers and practiced assanination, poison, strangulation etc.)
Yitzak Shamir blew up the Lord Nelson hotel
the first civilian airliner to go down was over Syria by the Israelis
Sharon, who writes in his autobiography Warrior, that Jewish life is inherently better and different, that he killed in blood revenge Bedouin tribesman, and in military accounts he did massacres well before his allowing Sabra and Shatilla (which was Christian militias massacring Palestinians) the Israeli investigation found him culpable

The earlier posts about Israeli funding of Hamas and Islamic fundamentalism is interesting and important. Similiar to the US (rightfully so and I am a strong anti-communist) funding the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan to defeat the Russian Soviet communist aethiests, it planted seeds for the Taliban and problems today. The funding of Hamas and the creation of Israeli village councils in the Israeli territories (including Sheikh Yassin) was meant to destablize the PLO.
--
The PLO, while far from perfect was not Islamic fundamentalists. The PLO, while certainly with a terrorist wing, as did early Zionists, Irish Catholic IRA, and many other groups good and bad, right and wrong--the PLO had a deal with the CIA to not hit American US soil targets
If the PLO and other terrorists threw all their weapons away, there would not be peace, some of them, if not most, would be massacred and put in jail--perhaps justified, but the Bill O'Reily theory is not true
Yasser Arafat is not an Al-Queda mold "terrorist", he was the genuinely liked and respected (even if wrong) leader of the Palestinians and he and the PLO (perhaps incorrectly) viewed their "terrorism" in the same way morally that early Jewish Zionist "terrorism" against Britain and other neighbors in the Middle East was used, for freedom, independence, nationhood

Many Jewish groups do not want and have passed local laws outlawing public Christmas ceremonies and have a theocratic state that does not allow public expressions of Christianity in the land that it was born in, and earlier poster mentions that it would be worse with radical Islam, and they may be correct, but the Vatican position was for Jerusalem to be an International City for all three Abrahamic faiths, and for some time pre the state of Israel even with Christians fighting (not blood) fighting over property rights (Copts v. Armenians, Latin Rite vs. Orthodox etc) there was tolerance and allowance for pilgrimage.
The indigenous Christians have a hard time not only from Muslim radicals (not from the PLO with many cultural Christians like George Habasch, Hanna Ashrawi and intermarriage like the last french speaking wife of Arafat)
The Noahide laws consider Christianity idolatory and idolatory can be punished by death
Some of the most intolerant people in the Middle East theoretically as well as practically are not just fundamentalist Muslims but Jews formerly from New York now living in outposts of what was Palestian land for almost 2000 years in attempt to justify theologically displacement of people considered subhuman (read Rabbi Yitzak Ginsburg) and for a greater Judea and Samaria.

I have a priest friend (diocesan but with close ties to the Franciscans and faculties in Ukrainian Rite) who taught at the University of Bethlehem and told of killings that went unreported and a concerted policy and effort by Israel to force Christians to emigrate, and not allow education, ownership of property, promotion of business. A policy that with 800 or so years or at least 500 years of relative tolerance of different Muslim rulers, that there was Christians living together with Muslims and in the last 10 to 20 years it has gotten worse than any time in the last three generations memory and theoretically historically worse in the last 500 years.
The Christians have no weapons to throw down, and Israel does not want them there. Certainly not to own property, get an education, or to have public expressions of a non Jewish religion.
Go to a Eastern Rite Catholic or Orthodox Antiochean Church with Palestinians and ask them, don't read the neo-con propoganda or repeat Bushisms or something read on the internet, yes you will hear criticisms of Islam-historically, philosophically and practically but you will also hear of Israeli oppression, and policies of dividing former neighbors and radicalizing the formerly urban, secular, Christian influenced Palestianian people into a creation of demographically young, Islamically fundamentalist, nihilistic population not reflecting what was or could of been.
Israel helped make it worse.

First, you should NOT allow Israel to kill non combatant innocent civilians to get back two soldiers.

Second, let them attack Hezbollah or apply pressure or negotiate or do assasinations or prisoner swaps, there are many things they can do.
But attacking a relatively peaceful compared to most of the 70s, 80s and 90s country that is relatively pro-Western, more pro-Israel than most, kicked out Syria, has some good wealth and business--to put them in disarray where you could have a return to tribal militias and fighting based on religious and tribal lines including Christian v. Christians, the drug trade, Syria, Israel, Muslim v. Muslim, Muslim v. Christian, US, France, family militias, etc--which could happen--Israel only cares about Israel--they have threatened to invade, nuke do whatever is necessary for them to survive and thrive-damn the world, Lebanon did not ask for this, and yes a bad portion of Lebanon, Palestinian and Shia Iran influenced is causing a problem, but killing civilians and putting the country in dissarray is not the answer

The current Israeli policy, with out backing and funding, will increase terrorism, hatred for them, and hatred for the US
It already has destabilized the region and there are 300 dead, thousands wounded, and tens if not hundreds of thousands dispalced, Billions of dollars damaged and lost
So if Lebanon had the power, should they attack back at Israel??
should the irrational Muslim Umma stick together and missle Israel
This is not getting better it is getting worse

import all catholics from the middle east into new jersey. then nuclear bomb the entire middle east.

problem solved. why not keep it simple?

"Bush is disgusting in charging US CITIZENS to get out safely in a situation that Bush is doing nothing to help."

Its slightly more complicated than that, isn't it? Congress passed a law that supposedly forces the State Department to charge for such evacuations. Why? Who knows. Stupid. But the law is the law, and the State department is bound to follow it even if they don't like it.

You'd think you could get a decent discussion around here, but involve politics and soon many are babbling mindlessly.

"The State Department has been authorized to seek reimbursement for rescues since 1956, according to the department. On a number of occasions in the past — in Tehran after the Iranian revolution of 1979, in Iraq and Kuwait on the eve of the 1991 Persian Gulf War and in strife-torn Liberia in 1996 — Americans have been asked to fill out pledges, though the government often declined to collect.

But four years ago, Congress tightened the law on seeking repayments.

Pelosi bristled at that interpretation, saying it was "never Congress' intent to prevent the U.S. government from evacuating our citizens from a very dangerous area."

Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) criticized the administration for hiding behind congressional history, contending that Bush could waive the requirement whenever he wanted."

Are TimJ and Bill-10 Catholics? Do they know about Aquinas and Just War?
Did they ever study history?
Do they care about the Catholics and other Christians who are being killed?
I never understood the irrational Catholic support of Israel, I know the Evangelicals, like Jimmy Akin was believe that Israel is helping bring about the Second Coming, and the Jews still are the chosen people of God, and this prophetic version of history and foreign policy
BUT Catholics do not buy into that (by official church teaching)
and it is interesting that with some Orthodox exceptions (who have explicit racist ideologies) the Jewish lobby (AIPAC) etc and the exception of some of the neo-cons-----most of the anti-Catholic, pro-abortion business lobby, homosexual lobby, Hollywood etc are JEWISH--that is not stereotype or anti-semitism
just look at the founders, board members, funders of Planned Parenthood, even Catholic convert Dr. Bernard Nathanson has admitted as much (convert from Judaism and founder of NARAL), the New York Times to an extent did a service in exposing priestly sex abuse in Catholics but what about the current crop of Rabbis in sex abuse or Episcopal summer camps, or public school teachers, or psychiatrists which is becoming a scandal--ALL ARE KEPT OFF FRONT PAGES
Israel going into Christian holy site, Israeli Army stealing and doing sacrilige, ASK THE PRIESTS IN THE HOLY LAND, don't just give your neo-con opinions

It is good you care about Israel, maybe Tim and Bill should care about your spiritual brother CATHOLICS

Nuke the Middle East, that is really Christian

evil even if a joke

unless sarcastic like the Irish Bishops Modest Proposal

Delance

That's absurd. When you bomb a power plant, you harm lots of innocent people. Will terrorists using rockets to attack Isreal be stopped with that? Of course not. All those christians killed on this bombing, with what right did Israel kill them?

Some Day

The Crusades never finished.
In a long game there is overtime.
Israel is just as evil as the fanatic muslims.
Israel flouts international and sovereign laws like nothing. Plus they got the whole world in their hands. We don't even notice it. They formed their own country out of nothing. And the muslims, they are physically more dangerous. They don't fear death, and they have no problem giving it to. But the US is just as bad morally.
So unless the Pope or a religious order froms an army, we are not going to have a real victory.
Evil can't fight Evil. Only the true Good can, and that is God. And God has been lost from the nations as a whole. The Vatican is the only country entirely faithful to God. And then, the Clergy isn't saintly.
Conclusion: Pray because times are about to get tough. She said it at Fatima then, but it is ever-revalent now.
Vigilance and Prayer

Honora

Intuiting the horrors of this week alone was surely one of those times when Jesus' nausea spiked the highest in Gethsemane.

Where is any arbitration / mediation? What happened to the "peace process"? We know, don't we.

bill912

"What happened to the 'peace process'? We know, don't we." We sure do; there never was one. Terrorists definition of "Ceasefire" is: "You cease, we fire."

Actually that seems to be the Israeli definition, Lebanon was at peace, Israel attacks

Bill: WHAT ABOUT THE CHRISTIANS?

William

Bill, Bill, Bill
so uniformed, such bad posting
please go back and study more
you make yourself look foolish

Dan E.

This has truly become a very revealing, if unbelievable, set of postings. We have gone from condemnation of Israel to the moral equivalence of "Israel is just as evil as the fanatic muslims," and "the US is just as bad morally." Incredible!
A poster calling himself "Mossad" claimed that I am not "coming from a Catholic perspective." All I have done is defend the right of Israel to exist and defend its existence. How is that not a Catholic view? If I have been un-Catholic, please provide the evidence. I would hope that I live my life always from a Catholic perspective, and while I strive to do so, I know I fail at times.
I do not believe a jew, no matter how pious, will achieve salvation without the grace of Jesus (John 14:6), and I believe we must pray for the conversion of the Jewish people. But I will not abandon Israel just because it is a Jewish nation. It is a democracy seeking to live in peace in a region in which democracy and peace are scarce.
Edward - good history lesson. Unfortunately, little of that is relevant today. The peace in which Muslims and Jews used to live is a thing of the past in the Middle East. Until the Muslim people accept the right of others to live and worship as non-Muslims, there will not be peace.

bill912

Dan E, You and I are small-minded. We are limited by mere reality. We are not privy to "Higher Truth".

No not "Higher Truth" nothing esoeteric here
Just that CHRISTIANS IN THE MIDDLE EAST HAVE RIGHTS AND A PERSPECTIVE TOO
and
ISRAEL BOMBING LEBANON IS NOT MORAL
(Just overlay the facts with the Aquinas Just War Principles)

and dig a little deeper into the violent and terrorist nature of Israel, their funding of Hamas and creating other Islamic fundamentalism

Israel has destabilized the region time and time again and has not wanted moderate regimes with moderate Sunni or secular pan Arabism (like Baath) or the new Lebanese (with many Christians in government) or the PLO (with many Christians, secularists, communists in their governing body and the alternative has become radical, nihilistic fundamentalist Muslims

Read the Mearsheimer U of C and Harvard report on Israeli influence it is online and in Forein Policy review last month, also defended by Catholic Zgbinew Brezinski

Read the Talmud, the actual Babylonian Talmud that is read in Yeshivas all around the world
Just read it

Michael

It is a democracy seeking to live in peace in a region in which democracy and peace are scarce.

Whether or not it is a democracy is largely irrelevent. Whether it seeks peace is debatable. Israel is regional power that is seeking hegemony backed by the U.S. It has no moral compunction against causing death and suffering to the peoples around it, whom it apparently considers to be somewhat less than fully human. Muslims or Christians, who cares? They are all Arabs who need to be ethnically cleansed to make room for a greater Israel like God promised Abraham.

Israel is not a democracy it is a quasi Democracy at best and actually a racially and superior based theocracy or quasi theocracy. It based on a ethno-religious identity to the exclusion of others, which I don't have a problem with per se, the idea of a nation in European history is based on people nation=people, but it tries to pretend and US sees it in some pluralistic multicultural lens. Israel is most like South Africa.

Is Israel better than Saudi Arabia (which it is a crime to have a Rosary in public) or Kuwait (which still has slavery on the books)
YES
But is it superior to Lebanon or Jordan--not necessarily.
It has hegemonic goals in the region, it took land by force, killed people, and displaced people, it did not commit the atrocities that took place in Sudan for example--but it also did not have the opportunity
Israel is not merely fighting for survival or fighting against terrorism

BillyHW

Homeschool your children.

Dan E.

OK, I get it. Israel is bad. Really bad. So I'll ask again. What would you propose to bring peace to the region that wouldn't result in the complete eradication of Israel? Or perhaps that is your solution (which wouldn't be a surprise coming from some of the posters here).

MrEko

Will new visitors please read #1 of DA RULZ. Thank you.

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