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April 25, 2007
On Losing My Speedo...
(Tim Jones)
My car is a wonder of modern American disposable engineering. A cheap compact with no frills and over 140 thousand miles, it astounds and delights me every time the engine cranks over (I am part Scot).
Lately, in addition to various other mysterious signs of aging, the speedometer just stops working at random. Mostly it works, but it can cut out at any time.
Now, when this happens, I noticed that I do one of two things; I either drive whatever speed "feels right", or I (consciously or un-) begin to adjust my speed to fit in with local traffic. This being the second car that I have been blessed to own having this defect, it struck me that A) maybe it was no accident, B) that a speedometer is an apt analogy to the human conscience, and C) that it was something out of which I could probably squeeze a blog post.
Of course, there may be many of you suggesting that D) maybe I should get the stupid car fixed, but given the actual value of the car, and the cost of pulling the dashboard and trying to find the problem (I have serviced my own car, like, twice in the last decade-and-a-half), it's nearly prohibitive. It's not really dangerous... just an irritation. Besides, I can often fix it by pounding on the dash just right... but I do plan to have it fixed as soon as possible.
But back to the conscience metaphor... The conscience (like the speedometer) is an internal guide that tells us how we're doing. We are given external guides (like road signs and Revelation) against which we can pretty reliably measure how well we are keeping The Law. But our consciences are not infallible. Sometimes they are defective. In a few instances, maybe they just never worked right at all. In the case of a defective conscience, a person will naturally tend to do one of two things... either they will do whatever "feels right" (whatever they want), or they will conform to the pressures of their immediate society.
We really need the external law, too (the road signs, Church teaching), or the reading on the speedometer becomes nearly meaningless. Following your conscience does NOT mean just doing whatever "feels right". The conscience is made to conform to an authoritative standard. If a policeman tickets you for driving 75 when your speedometer was reading only 62, there is no appealing to the defective instrument... the cop wins. If the church tells you that fornication is a sin, you have no defense in noting that, personally, you have no big problem with it. Your speedo is out of whack. Period. You are bound by your conscience, but your conscience is bound by The Law.
A defective conscience can - and should be - fixed.
Thing is, though, that I have received a few minor traffic tickets in my life, and in none of these instances was I driving a car with a bad speedo. The problem was, I had been ignoring a perfectly functioning speedo. I'd lay odds that this is the case in the vast majority of speeding violations. People just aren't paying attention... they are driving whatever speed they like, or they are going with the flow, or their mind is elsewhere, they are distracted.
For most of us, the conscience is working fine (or close enough), but we often ignore it. We can develop the habit of ignoring it.
One last thought... when you drive according to the traffic laws as faithfully as you can, you become like a living, moving representation - a personification of the law - to other drivers. You're the living law, just as we are all meant to be a living Catechism for those around us. That doesn't mean you won't be honked at... just try to avoid the fast lane.
That's it. Just something I pulled from random mental notes from a busy week. Tawk amongst ya-selves... got any good car stories?
Posted by Tim Jones in Miscellaneous | Permalink
Comments
If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
Posted by: Mary | Apr 25, 2007 2:50:00 PM
And here I thought this post was going to be about your swimsuit :)
Posted by: Franklin | Apr 25, 2007 2:52:46 PM
"If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law."
And how do you know you are led by the Spirit?
"And here I thought this post was going to be about your swimsuit :)"
Gotcha.
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 25, 2007 2:56:03 PM
Tim, I had the same first reaction as Franklin. :)
Posted by: Mary Kay | Apr 25, 2007 2:57:05 PM
And how do you know you are led by the Spirit?
That's up to the Spirit.
Posted by: Mary | Apr 25, 2007 3:00:15 PM
1 John 4:1 Beloved, don't believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Posted by: Esau | Apr 25, 2007 3:05:31 PM
"I am like a little pencil in [God's] hand," Mother Teresa would say. "He does the thinking. He does the writing. The pencil has only to be allowed to be used."
Posted by: Tom | Apr 25, 2007 3:06:36 PM
"you become like a living, moving representation - a personification of the law - to other drivers."
This affects the others whose speedos don't work or aren't paying attention. When there are more of us obeying the law, the others that are "going with the flow" will tend to match our speeds. We can begin to turn the culture around by small acts.
Posted by: Dragonslayer | Apr 25, 2007 3:17:36 PM
"That's up to the Spirit."
In other words "You'll just know". How many times have you heard THAT one?
"Religion *LITE*... that vague spiritual feeling you crave, with none of the responsibility!! Try it today!"
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 25, 2007 3:22:07 PM
Mocking the Spirit, Tim?
Posted by: Mary | Apr 25, 2007 3:34:00 PM
Tawk amongst ya-selves... got any good car stories?
Possibly. I once drove my brand new car up a run-away truck ramp in the Olympic Mountains of Washington because I thought it would be fun.
See, my family used to take road trips when I was little, and I always thought the run-away truck ramps were just steep gravel roads where the steepness stops the run-away truck.
With that in mind, on a road trip out west in 2000 with my best friend from high school and a 1 year old '99 Cavalier (my first new car), I decided on a whim to drive up one of the many truck ramps that we were passing in the mountains.
It turns out that run-away truck ramps are not just steep. They are deep. Deep gravel pits into which little bitty Cavaliers quickly descend when driven up at full highway speed.
It was thanks to a couple strangers in a jeep who helped dig out the wheels, jack-up the car onto some boards we found laying on the side of the road, and tow us out of the pit that we were able to continue our vacation.
Despite their help, the individual in charge of the jack did not have much concern for my car and did a lot of damage to its facade. I had to climb into the drivers seat from the passenger side for a few days because the driver's side door wouldn't open. My Cavalier was henceforth called "Scarface". Moreover, I did about a thousand dollars worth of damage to the underside of the car.
Oh well. I imagine we could've been hurt. So the moral of the story is: don't imitate Smoky. He's a dufus.
Posted by: Smoky Mountain Nincompoop | Apr 25, 2007 3:36:25 PM
"Mocking the Spirit, Tim?"
Okay, so mocking your silly, frothy, low-cal sophistry is the same as mocking the Spirit?
Let me know when the Mothership arrives...
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 25, 2007 3:43:17 PM
Smoky, that was hilarious. thanks for sharing.
Posted by: SDben5 | Apr 25, 2007 3:43:51 PM
Okay, so mocking your silly, frothy, low-cal sophistry is the same as mocking the Spirit?
Yup.
Posted by: Mary | Apr 25, 2007 3:44:59 PM
Okay, so mocking your silly, frothy, low-cal sophistry is the same as mocking the Spirit?
Yup.
Whoa!
The Holy Spirit is actually 'Mary'?
Learned something new today!
Posted by: Esau | Apr 25, 2007 3:47:00 PM
The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. That's the Spirit I came in.
Posted by: Mary | Apr 25, 2007 3:48:37 PM
Beloved, don't believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1 John 4:1
Posted by: Esau | Apr 25, 2007 3:49:28 PM
Formation of conscience is supposed to change you perception of what "feels right". So Mary is right. If we let the spirit form our thinking correctly then we don't need the law. We will just naturally find the right speed. Speedometers are for those still forming their sense of what is right. We need to check our conscience against them. Still they are a tool for getting us there and not the end goal.
Posted by: Randy | Apr 25, 2007 3:50:07 PM
"Yup."
Isn't that special? No need to study scripture or Church teaching... just call Mary.
Why do I have this nagging feeling that the LAST person in possession of a direct pipeline to the Spirit would be the one to claim such a thing?
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 25, 2007 3:54:36 PM
Formation of conscience is supposed to change you perception of what "feels right". So Mary is right. If we let the spirit form our thinking correctly then we don't need the law. We will just naturally find the right speed.
And how do you that what you think the spirit is telling you is actually right? How do you even know it's actually the Holy Spirit, for that matter?
Thus, Saint Paul says in Ephesians:
11 And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors:
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the word of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ:
14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.
Posted by: Esau | Apr 25, 2007 3:56:02 PM
Formation of conscience is supposed to change you perception of what "feels right". So Mary is right. If we let the spirit form our thinking correctly then we don't need the law. We will just naturally find the right speed.
And how do you know that what you think the spirit is telling you is actually right? How do you even know it's actually the Holy Spirit, for that matter?
Thus, Saint Paul says in Ephesians:
11 And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors:
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the word of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ:
14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.
Posted by: Esau | Apr 25, 2007 3:57:10 PM
We sometimes drove my in-laws' car, which had a speedometer that would randomly decide to cut out. The tachometer was vaguely helpful then. Car had some issues, not so much age-related as "slap-together-because-this-is-the-last-year-we're-making-it" related. And since it was touted as a "collector's" type of car, well...they got away with it.
Posted by: Cheryl S. | Apr 25, 2007 4:01:23 PM
"Formation of conscience is supposed to change you perception of what "feels right". So Mary is right. If we let the spirit form our thinking correctly then we don't need the law."
Umm, no. We DO begin to carry the Law within us, and to develop a feel for it (which allows us perhaps to enjoy the scenery with a bit more peace and confidence) but unless you claim to be able to do that perfectly, you run the risk of fooling yourself into thinking that "whatever I FEEL is right IS the law... it MUST be".
That's just dangerously wrong-headed. When you DO find your feelings running contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, Tradition or the Magisterium, it is - without a doubt - YOU who are in need of adjustment. There is great peace in knowing this, as well.
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 25, 2007 4:02:46 PM
Smoky Mountain you so siwwy.
Posted by: Tito | Apr 25, 2007 4:12:17 PM
Speedo + Catholic blog = hilarity (:P)
I adore our 1993 Honda Civic. It has nearly 190,000 miles on it but it's still chugging along. We call it "The Little Honda That Could."
Posted by: JoAnna | Apr 25, 2007 4:25:25 PM
Mary, I may have you confused with another poster, so my apologies if that is the case... but unless I miss my guess you are of the opinion that Primacy of Conscience trumps all other considerations? This is 180 degrees contrary to the truth.
St. Augustine is supposed to have said "Love God and do as you please" (or something like that), but only a truly colossal spiritual ego would presume that they love God with such perfection that they needn't bother with a little thing like obedience. In all areas in which we have no other instruction - neutral things like "Paper or Plastic", by all means, love God and do as you please. Where the Scriptures, Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church has spoken with authority, the Spirit could not POSSIBLY contradict, because the Truth is One... the Spirit can not contradict Himself.
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 25, 2007 4:25:29 PM
Mary, I may have you confused with another poster, so my apologies if that is the case...
There are actually 2 'Mary's?
That explains things...
Posted by: Esau | Apr 25, 2007 4:37:23 PM
It's like the Bible. So many Marys it's hard to figure out which is which sometimes.
Posted by: J.R. Stoodley | Apr 25, 2007 4:44:26 PM
Yeah -- but J.R., when looking strictly at the posts by said Mary(s), it seemed as if it was the same person posting:
And how do you know you are led by the Spirit?That's up to the Spirit.
Posted by: Mary | Apr 25, 2007 3:00:15 PMMocking the Spirit, Tim?
Posted by: Mary | Apr 25, 2007 3:34:00 PMOkay, so mocking your silly, frothy, low-cal sophistry is the same as mocking the Spirit?
Yup.
Posted by: Mary | Apr 25, 2007 3:44:59 PMThe fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. That's the Spirit I came in.
Posted by: Mary | Apr 25, 2007 3:48:37 PM
Posted by: Esau | Apr 25, 2007 4:55:31 PM
Actually, I was thinking of a Mary from an earlier thread.
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 25, 2007 5:06:55 PM
Actually, I was thinking of a Mary from an earlier thread.
Thanks for the clarification, Tim J.!
For a moment there, I thought there were actually 2 people posting as Marys, assuming the other's identity by continuing their responses.
Yet, I don't quite think that the Mary that posted on this thread is 'Catholic' though.
The original statement she made "If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law" is not too far from what a Protestant minister-in-training used to teach us way back when.
Incidentally -- he was actually Korean!
(Sorry, J.R., I couldn't resist mentioning this after the 'projection' question you had on the other thread.)
Posted by: Esau | Apr 25, 2007 5:15:36 PM
The original statement she made "If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law" is not too far from what a Protestant minister-in-training used to teach us way back when.
It think it comes from Paul's teachings in Galatians.
Posted by: Phil | Apr 25, 2007 5:36:03 PM
Note: this is merely a car story that has no bearing at all to the underlying subject of this post, but I wonder if anyone else has as a standard feature a mouse living in their car. A mouse has been living in the dashboard of my van for about two years now and has no desire or intention of moving out. Unfortunately, I didn't discover his existence until he ate the title, the license registration and the receipts of all the repairs done to it...
Posted by: Paul Hoffer | Apr 25, 2007 5:37:49 PM
Well, the Law for us is Love... love for Christ first, and love of our neighbor for His sake.
What this Law of Love looks like in practice, though, is something we must learn through the Church (Scripture, Tradition, Magisterium).
Otherwise, you have "The Spirit showed me that the best thing would be to encourage this girl to have an abortion", or "The Spirit confirmed to me that tax rates are unfairly high, so it was okay to hide that income... I mean, I really love God, and everything, so it's okay, as long as my conscience doesn't bother me...".
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 25, 2007 5:46:22 PM
"It think it comes from Paul's teachings in Galatians."
Absolutely, but Paul had a great deal more to say than THAT. We also MUST recognize his distinction between the Jewish ceremonial law and the moral law. If we think we are "free" from the moral law, we decieve ourselves.
Our belief that we act in the Spirit is not a license to ignore the moral law.
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 25, 2007 5:53:48 PM
I don't think it's immoral to not observe the speed limit while driving.
Posted by: Phil | Apr 25, 2007 6:09:47 PM
Hmm. I drove an 87 Corolla for 8 years (from 1996 - 2004) and shortly after I got it the backup lights quit working. Wonder if I could get a blog post outta that?
Posted by: Chris | Apr 25, 2007 6:11:10 PM
"I don't think it's immoral to not observe the speed limit while driving."
I'm not arguing that traffic law is sacrosanct, that it is - necessarily - a matter of mortal sin (though it sure might be).
But by way of analogy, traffic law can represent the authoritative teaching of the Church in all its forms. One is not at liberty to say "Well, I'm a pretty safe driver... I don't need to pay attention to the speed limit".
I'd also like to see the reasoning behind your claim that observing the speed limit is not - ordinarily - a moral necessity. I mean, if you're free to "not observe" it, you're free to ignore it, which I would like to see defended. One of the moral laws is that we obey proper authority, unless its demands contradict the law of God. That's scriptural (Paul again).
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 25, 2007 6:25:44 PM
If I have a dying person in my car and I'm taking them to the hospital at 3 am, I'm not going to sit for two minutes waiting for the red light to turn green at a deserted intersection. The letter of the law says to wait, but the spirit of the law is based on protecting lives.
Posted by: Phil | Apr 25, 2007 6:37:06 PM
You are bound by your conscience, but your conscience is bound by The Law.
Tim, I love this statement (and the analogy, btw). I think that I'll be repeating this one often.
Posted by: | Apr 25, 2007 6:54:17 PM
not too far from what a Protestant minister-in-training used to teach us way back when.
It think it comes from Paul's teachings in Galatians.
Phil:
I believe when Paul was speaking about "The Law", he was actually refering to the Jewish customary laws.
However, the Protestant minister-in-training that was teaching us then had interpreted this in such a manner that he made it apply to the Catholic Church when, in fact, this wasn't at all what Paul had meant when he had made mention of "The Law".
In that case, Paul was talking about the Judaizers.
Posted by: Esau | Apr 25, 2007 7:32:38 PM
Tim,
Never said the church does not come into it. I thought the church (or the word of God) is there to form our conscience. First of all, it means obeying the commandment. Then it goes deeper. You need to learn to think with the mind of the church. Once you do that you become free from the law because you no longer desire to disobey. Your will becomes one with the will of Christ. That is what the text Mary was quoting means. You still need to insure that you don't drift. Still there is no need to pay close attention to the details of the law. If you continue to abide in Christ obedience will flow naturally. If it does not you need to step back and reform your conscience in that area. The Christian life was never meant to be constantly checking you speedometer. It is about knowing the lawgiver so well the law becomes almost an afterthought. Of course we always have to guard against the things you talk about. That is when we let our conscience rebel against the law. Conscience is a way to let the law go much more deeply into our psyche. We must surrender even at the level of our private thoughts so we don't let the devil get a foothold. I hope that clarifies things somewhat because you seem to have completely misunderstood me.
Posted by: Randy | Apr 25, 2007 8:36:28 PM
I haven't posted on this thread yet.
Note the other Mary doesn't have an email address. So her name isn't underlined.
Not to mention that I disagree with her claims. . .
Posted by: Mary | Apr 25, 2007 8:52:18 PM
That doesn't mean you won't be honked at... just try to avoid the fast lane.
Where I live, every lane is the fast lane. To not go with the flow, i.e. to go the posted speed limit, can be a danger to others and self.
Posted by: Katy | Apr 25, 2007 10:19:44 PM
"Once you do that you become free from the law because you no longer desire to disobey."
In that sense, of course I agree with you. One need not live in constant fear of breaking a law that one knows by heart and that it is one's delight to live by. The odd, unintended infraction or momentary suspension for a higher good (let's say I break the speed limit temporarily in an emergency, or to keep from jamming up the passing lane) is bound to happen, but that is not a case of me placing myself above the law... more like looking behind the letter of the law for the real intent.
"The Christian life was never meant to be constantly checking you speedometer."
Absolutely, hence my comment about "enjoying the scenery". Christ died to set us free. You can't drive with your eye glued to the speedometer, but it IS there for a reason, and it is ultimately measured against a real, objective standard. Freedom and license are two VASTLY different things, and in fact oppose one another. I agree with just about everything you said... and of course, all analogies break down if pushed too far. The whole idea was a way to explore how things can go wrong when the conscience is defective, or when we neglect it, and how people might respond to that. To say, "Oh, I don't NEED a speedometer anymore" is just inviting disaster.
But, speaking of conscience and the law of love, I do find that my earlier back and forth with Mary was needlessly aggressive (on my part) and not helpful. For whatever reason, I had a knee-jerk response to a line of thought I assumed she was taking, and I unloaded on her. I apologize. I may have been correct about the point she was trying to make (or maybe not), but I jumped the gun.
Maybe there have been more than the usual number of "I know you are, but what am I?" trolls in the combox lately, and I was in a mood. Don't know, really... but anyway, sorry.
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 25, 2007 10:30:44 PM
"If I have a dying person in my car and I'm taking them to the hospital at 3 am..."
So, that makes speed limits irrelevant the other 99.9% of the time?
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 25, 2007 10:56:25 PM
So, that makes speed limits irrelevant the other 99.9% of the time?
I don't know where you pulled that from. Speed limits can be quite useful.
Posted by: Phil | Apr 25, 2007 11:44:10 PM
Thankfully, there are state laws governing yearly inspection...(like the ecclesial law that we should receive communion once a year during Easter time, and go to confession before hand)...that will, depending on your state, require you to fix those swim trunks, er uh, speedometer. (Although not in NY...but you out there in Middle America may have stricter guidelines)
Posted by: Barbara | Apr 26, 2007 5:57:39 AM
I just have to chime in and say...
140,000 miles? Bah! I bought my car with more than that on it! I'm now up to 230,900, and my last car went to 250,000 before I killed it! Mwahahahaa!
And I'm not even part Scot, Tim J! ;-)
Posted by: Kasia | Apr 26, 2007 6:13:49 AM
140,000 miles? Bah! I bought my car with more than that on it! I'm now up to 230,900, and my last car went to 250,000 before I killed it! Mwahahahaa!
Wow. Scarface is now 8 years old and is up to about 173,000 miles. I thought I was doing well...I'll have some thinking to do as I weigh "must break 200,000 miles" against "can't keep throwing repair dollars at this car".
Posted by: Smoky Mountain Humble Bee | Apr 26, 2007 6:38:08 AM
"Hmm. I drove an 87 Corolla for 8 years (from 1996 - 2004) and shortly after I got it the backup lights quit working."
I had an '88 Dynasty I drove until the tranny gave out at 250K miles. While driving it, the brake lights stopped working. I discovered that the fuse (a 5 amp, I believe) kept burning out; but that if I put a 10 amp in there, it worked fine.
Old cars and their endearing quirks.
Posted by: Jim | Apr 26, 2007 6:49:11 AM
Once you do that you become free from the law because you no longer desire to disobey. Your will becomes one with the will of Christ.
I thought our will becomes one with the will of Christ when we choose to do what is good despite our desires. We can't always control our desire to disobey, but we can control what decide to do about it.
Doing my best to stick with the car analogy, it sounds like you're saying we need to be a natural race car driver who does it all on God-given ability. But some drivers have less natural ability and have to focus more on technique and training. No matter how you do it, it's about driving your car toward the finish line. (My apologies for throwing the speed limit out the window with my race car analogy)
Posted by: Brian | Apr 26, 2007 7:06:17 AM
Besides, I can often fix it by pounding on the dash just right...
This reminds me of that commercial where the guy's car keeps making a noise and he pounds on the dash to make it stop. Then two seconds later the whole car falls apart.
Posted by: Brian | Apr 26, 2007 7:09:53 AM
"Where I live, every lane is the fast lane. To not go with the flow, i.e. to go the posted speed limit, can be a danger to others and self."
Where I live, you're never the last person through a yellow light....
Posted by: LarryD | Apr 26, 2007 7:14:19 AM
LarryD and Katy - I will be praying for you! I HATE that kind of traffic, which is partly why I live in NW Arkansas.
I know some people couldn't stand the slow pace, here, but I have grown to love this part of the country.
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 26, 2007 8:19:00 AM
*friendly beep*
*waves*
Posted by: BobCatholic | Apr 26, 2007 9:43:39 AM
I haven't read all the other comments, but I really got something out of this 'homily'. So much so I blogged about it, too.
Posted by: cjmr | Apr 26, 2007 9:43:45 AM
Smoky Mountain,
I hear ya. I bought mine at 9 years old with 173K, and have been (perhaps unrealistically) planning to break 300K. However, my 'check engine' light came on again last night, so Baby might be biting the dust soon...
Posted by: Kasia | Apr 26, 2007 10:12:18 AM
I think Randy has done a pretty good job of properly interpreting what Mary seems to have mis-interpreted. Like Tim J., I read her post as a justification for sin, by claiming that there is no sin for her, because she's "in the spirit". I could have misunderstood her, but the tone of her posts certainly implied that.
But I'd agree with Randy, that you are not under the law, only if you have so absorbed the law into your conscience that you have no desire to do differently. Where I disagree with Randy, though, is his claim that as Christians we are not supposed to be constantly checking the speedometer. Aren't we supposed to be examining our consciences everytime we line up for communion? That would seem to require keeping a close eye on the speedometer.
Posted by: Snowman | Apr 26, 2007 11:06:16 AM
Good point, Snowman.
The fact that we are *expected* to make an Examination of Conscience regularly means that we are not to just blow off checking our speed gauge against the road signs (the Ten Commandments, for instance).
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 26, 2007 11:29:45 AM
Also, if all you needed was the Spirit, as Mary seemed to have claimed, then why did Paul say in Ephesians:
11 And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors:
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the word of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ:
14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.
Didn't the Spirit descend on these Christians as well?
So, if all they needed was the Spirit, what need have they for even Saint Paul himself?
Posted by: Esau | Apr 26, 2007 11:33:32 AM
Tim J,
I like your analogy of vehicular controls to conscience and road signs to external Revelation. This line of analogous thinking could be taken quite far, encompassing side streets vs. the Interstate system, potholes & road construction, off-road driving, etc.
Having said that, most analogies fall short, and I fear yours does as well. Where, in your cosmology, do run-away truck ramps fall?
Posted by: Smoky Mountain | Apr 26, 2007 11:38:01 AM
Where, in your cosmology, do run-away truck ramps fall?
Maybe they're the equivalent of excommunication. They're kind of like the very last failsafe before you head over cliff into spiritual death.
Posted by: Brian | Apr 26, 2007 11:54:44 AM
Where, in your cosmology, do run-away truck ramps fall?
It's Limbo!
Posted by: | Apr 26, 2007 11:59:20 AM
So, if all they needed was the Spirit, what need have they for even Saint Paul himself?
There's no requirement that everyone read St. Paul. If it's helpful to you, go ahead and read it. But it's not required. It's also not required that your speedometer work perfectly / correctly. It might be helpful, but it's not required.
Posted by: Mark | Apr 26, 2007 12:10:53 PM
I DID enjoy your run-away truck ramp story, Smoky.
Brian's reply was apt. Of course, for people who run up the things just for the THRILL... it sounds like some sort of weird ascetic practice.
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 26, 2007 12:12:36 PM
There's no requirement that everyone read St. Paul. If it's helpful to you, go ahead and read it. But it's not required. It's also not required that your speedometer work perfectly / correctly. It might be helpful, but it's not required.
Mark:
If that was the case, then the Apostles would've just baptized people and let them be.
They wouldn't have established a local church at almost every place they visited in order to continue to preach and teach the Christian converts in those places.
Thus, Paul said in 2nd Thessalonians:
Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle. 2Thes 2:15
Posted by: Esau | Apr 26, 2007 12:19:51 PM
You could extend this already extended metaphor into a book. Maybe set it up like a car owner's manual or a defensive driving manual or something like that.
Posted by: Brian | Apr 26, 2007 12:21:17 PM
You could extend this already extended metaphor into a book. Maybe set it up like a car owner's manual or a defensive driving manual or something like that.
How does "The Fast and the Furious" fit into this metaphor?
Posted by: Esau | Apr 26, 2007 12:24:24 PM
How does "The Fast and the Furious" fit into this metaphor?
Especially my favorite installment of this underappreciated franchise, "Tokyo Drift"?
Posted by: Smoky Mountain | Apr 26, 2007 12:25:46 PM
If that was the case, then the Apostles would've just baptized people and let them be.
For some, that may be all the preaching that's required. For others, more may be needed.
Posted by: Mark | Apr 26, 2007 12:27:43 PM
Especially my favorite installment of this underappreciated franchise, "Tokyo Drift"?
Smoky Mountain:
I've got to admit, when I first saw the commercial for it -- I thought it was just one of those lame follow-ups.
But, when I saw it on DVD, I kinda liked the fact that it actually reflected some reality, in spite of the pathetic plot.
There were folks in college that were exactly like the type there!
In fact, I hate to admit it, but an Asian girl I was seeing then was actually a 'race' girl just like the type in that movie!
Posted by: Esau | Apr 26, 2007 12:30:36 PM
For some, that may be all the preaching that's required. For others, more may be needed.
Mark:
Please demonstrate to me that what you say here is actually true -- that there were cases where the Apostles just baptized people and let them be.
That goes against the historical evidence; not to mention, testimonies by the early church fathers themselves.
Posted by: Esau | Apr 26, 2007 12:33:31 PM
Esau, it's a fact that a driver is not required to ever look at his speedometer. For most people, it's very helpful to look at a speedometer but if a person can drive his car within the law without ever looking at his speedometer, more power to him.
There is no requirement that everyone has to read St. Paul to be a good Christian. Think of blind, deaf and illiterate people throughout the world. You're welcome to read all the "testimonies" you want, but not everyone is even capable of reading, nor does it make your interpretation of what you read to be holding in respect to everyone else.
Posted by: Mark | Apr 26, 2007 12:39:23 PM
Mark:
You still haven't addressed my particular inquiries on the matter.
You replied to my comment If that was the case, then the Apostles would've just baptized people and let them be.
... with the following:
For some, that may be all the preaching that's required. For others, more may be needed.
Again, if the Spirit is all that is needed, then why did the Apostles establish local churches?
Why did Paul, in fact, continue to write letters to the local churches as well as continue to visit and preach to them?
If the Spirit is all that's needed, he would've just let them alone.
Furthermore, there would not have been local churches in the first place.
Posted by: Esau | Apr 26, 2007 12:46:07 PM
Mark, you DO understand that you are making an argument for ignoring the Bible, the New Testament of which St. Paul mostly wrote? The Bible is not just some collection of "testimonies"... it is authoritative, inspired, inerrant and infallible. The "Just Me and the Spirit" mindset is a disaster waiting to happen.
"...if a person can drive his car within the law without ever looking at his speedometer, more power to him."
Sure... you know anyone like that?
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 26, 2007 12:47:02 PM
Mark, you DO understand that you are making an argument for ignoring the Bible, the New Testament of which St. Paul mostly wrote?
Jesus did not command everyone to read the Bible. There are many people who live in love who've never read it.
Sure... you know anyone like that?
Sure, you and I. I can easily drive down to the corner sandwich shop without any need to look at the speedometer. I bet you oould too.
Posted by: Mark | Apr 26, 2007 1:05:35 PM
"I can easily drive down to the corner sandwich shop without any need to look at the speedometer."
And how do you KNOW that? You "just know"?
In addition, you said,
"...if a person can drive his car within the law without ever looking at his speedometer..."
That was "ever", not "to the sandwich shop".
But hey, the impulse to avoid looking at one's conscience is extremely common... best let sleeping dogs lie, eh?
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 26, 2007 1:16:40 PM
Jesus did not command everyone to read the Bible.
Mark:
Just because Jesus didn't specifically mention something doesn't actually give evidence to that which you're wrongfully assuming here.
Jesus didn't actually mention abortion, too, and give a specific command to be against it.
At any rate, you say Jesus didn't actually command reading the 'Bible'.
However, Jesus did establish a Church (Mt 16:18) and placed upon certain individuals His authority.
"As the Father has sent me, I also send you."
John 20:21
"He who hears you hears me: he who rejects you rejects me." Luke 10:16
"Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound
also in heaven" Matt. 18:18
In fact, the very bible we have now is the result of the Catholic Church -- bishops who in the 4th century decided which books belonged to the Bible and which didn't.
It is by the Church that the Teachings of Jesus is continued throughout the world and time as well.
Posted by: Esau | Apr 26, 2007 1:34:13 PM
And how do you KNOW that? You "just know"?
Call it experience if that pleases you.
That was "ever", not "to the sandwich shop".
I don't need to "ever" to look at the speedometer while driving to the sandwich shop. I didn't look at the speedometer at all this morning. Will I need to look at it on the way home? I might not, and if I do, it might not be out of need so much as habit.
But hey, the impulse to avoid looking at one's conscience is extremely common... best let sleeping dogs lie, eh?
If you're the impulsive type, maybe you will.
Posted by: Mark | Apr 26, 2007 1:34:18 PM
Try again Esau. The Church does not command everyone to read the Bible. It may encourage, but it does not command.
Posted by: Mark | Apr 26, 2007 1:36:16 PM
Try again Esau. The Church does not command everyone to read the Bible. It may encourage, but it does not command.
Try again, Mark.
As before, I was again referring to your reply to my comment If that was the case, then the Apostles would've just baptized people and let them be.
... wherein you said the following:
For some, that may be all the preaching that's required. For others, more may be needed.
Also, what need have you of the Church or a church?
Don't you have the Spirit?
Posted by: Esau | Apr 26, 2007 1:39:26 PM
Esau, you were claiming it is a command of the Church for people to read the Bible. It is not.
Also, what need have you of the Church or a church?
What is the Church without its people? I can go to church, but that doesn't mean I hear what any human is saying. I can be deaf but still hear the Word.
Posted by: Mark | Apr 26, 2007 1:45:31 PM
Mark:
What need have you of the Word?
You have the Spirit, no?
Posted by: Esau | Apr 26, 2007 1:48:01 PM
The Word was before the Bible was written. The Word is not dependent upon the Bible. The Word is not limited to the Bible.
Posted by: Mark | Apr 26, 2007 1:52:31 PM
That's odd -- as you had claimed, I thought all you needed was the Spirit?
Posted by: Esau | Apr 26, 2007 1:55:23 PM
I said Paul's preachings aren't needed by everyone.
Posted by: Mark | Apr 26, 2007 2:04:32 PM
Mark, are you Catholic or some other Christian denomition? I can't tell where you're coming from.
You may be technically correct. Someone could for example be deaf and illiterate so they wouldn't hear or read scripture while participating at Mass. And all their religious education could consist of paraphrases and summaries of scripture. But you're arguing the exception rather than the rule. This type of thing would only happen in extreme circumstances.
The Word was before the Bible was written. The Word is not dependent upon the Bible. The Word is not limited to the Bible.
I think you've just defeated even your exception here. The Bible as you say, is a subset of the Word. Our deaf, illiterate friend in the example above has received the Word and therefore has received the Bible.
Posted by: Brian | Apr 26, 2007 2:07:42 PM
I said Paul's preachings aren't needed by everyone.
If Paul's preachings weren't needed by everyone, the Catholic bishops would not have included them in the Bible in the first place when they were deciding in the 4th century just which books belonged to it and which did not.
Posted by: Esau | Apr 26, 2007 2:10:03 PM
But you're arguing the exception rather than the rule. This type of thing would only happen in extreme circumstances.
It even happens with people who can read.
Our deaf, illiterate friend in the example above has received the Word and therefore has received the Bible.
When I was using the word "Bible", I was meaning the specific set of stories and examples as written in the well-known book. The deaf, illiterate friend isn't going to be reciting those or relying upon them.
If Paul's preachings weren't needed by everyone, the Catholic bishops would not have included them in the Bible in the first place when they were deciding in the 4th century just which books belonged to it and which did not.
Not everyone needs to read all the books, even if it was deemed necessary to include them all for the benefit of the many.
Posted by: Mark | Apr 26, 2007 2:17:43 PM
"And how do you KNOW that? You "just know"?
Call it experience if that pleases you.
In otehr words, you don't know, you assume.
Or, perhaps more correctly - you PREsume.
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 26, 2007 2:26:30 PM
Mark:
If Paul's preachings are not deemed necessary for the many, then why do Catholic priests/Protestant ministers often preach on them and read them at Mass/Worship services?
Posted by: Esau | Apr 26, 2007 2:28:27 PM
In otehr words, you don't know, you assume
Those "otehr" words are your own, twisted.
If Paul's preachings are not deemed necessary for the many
There are many who may need them, and also many who do not.
Posted by: Mark | Apr 26, 2007 2:32:23 PM
Mark:
How do you know that the Word you possess is indeed The Word?
Posted by: Esau | Apr 26, 2007 2:39:11 PM
The Word judges.
Posted by: Mark | Apr 26, 2007 2:44:39 PM
Try again, Mark.
Jesus said:
And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
Mt 18:17
Also, in Acts, it is said:
And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles and in the communication of the breaking of bread and in prayers.
Acts 2:42
Now, how is it that what you do/believe actually in accordance to that doctrine which Christ had taught/passed onto His Apostles?
And he taught them many things in parables, and said unto them in his doctrine
Mk 4:2
Posted by: Esau | Apr 26, 2007 2:57:53 PM
Not everyone needs to read all the books, even if it was deemed necessary to include them all for the benefit of the many.
Yes, but we do need to live by all of them. We can't pick and choose.
Posted by: Brian | Apr 26, 2007 3:07:50 PM
The Word judges. It is your heart so you may obey it. Reading the Bible is not required, though it may be helpful.
Posted by: Mark | Apr 26, 2007 3:45:12 PM
It is in your heart so you may obey it.
Posted by: Mark | Apr 26, 2007 3:46:55 PM
"Mark" sounds just like "Mary".
Hmmm...
Are all the gnostic websites down, or something?
Posted by: Tim J. | Apr 26, 2007 3:47:14 PM
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